We Need to Listen to More Women
I had lunch with a friend and former boss a few weeks ago and we were talking about the relatively imminent launch of my podcast, and what I’d need to do to support its success. Podcasts are notoriously tricky to market, particularly if you don’t have a massive following on social; typically, the best means for getting the word out besides drafting on the algorithm of the charts and hoping for discovery (the charts are a mystery, as they don’t seem to be particularly accurate) is guesting on other podcasts and simple word-of-mouth. That really is the most productive marketing mechanism—and you can’t game it.
David, my friend and former boss, is a huge fan of Sam Harris, the neuroscientist/philosopher who hosts Making Sense, and he suggested I pitch myself for his show. “He doesn’t really interview women,” I replied reflexively. Later that night, I decided to fact-check myself. Up until relatively recently, podcasts have been a bro industry, completely dominated by men like Joe Rogan, Tim Ferriss, Marc Maron, Ben Shapiro, and recently, Dax Shephard’s “Armchair Expert,” which he co-hosts with Monica Padman. True Crime of every variation, shows like “The Daily,” “This American Life,” and “Stuff You Should Know” also top the charts. As for women, “Call her Daddy,” a podcast about sex and relationships from Alexandra Cooper permeates the top. When I was there, the goop Podcast did well (I’m sure it still does) and Brené Brown broke through in a big way with her show, “Unlocking Us.” But it’s definitely a lot of dudes.
And no, they don’t really interview women. I did a quick tabulation of a couple of shows up through the beginning of June 2021 (I didn’t bother with Joe Rogan as he is famous for talking to very few ladies), and this is what I found: 79 out of 561 Tim Ferriss episodes feature women as guests (15.31%); 37 out of 251 Sam Harris episodes feature women as guests (14.74%); and 107 out of 333 Dax Shepherd episodes feature women as guests (32.13%). On the flipside, 21 out of 57 episodes on Brené Brown’s “Unlocking Us” feature men as guests (36.84%), which goes slightly higher on “Dare to Lead” (44.82%). Go Brené! (When I was at goop, 42.12% of episodes featured men.)
To be fair, I’m going to guess that there simply hasn’t been much consciousness around equity when it comes to booking guests, particularly for the men who have been at this for many years—they’re just booking who they want to speak to, without an eye for parity. But it also reflects a wider bias in the consciousness, which is that men are typically perceived as more “expert.” And they certainly dominate the top of every industry. But women outpace men in education, starting with the earliest grades; and we also read more. We have a lot to share and say.
I’ve started booking guests for my podcast—coming in September!—targeting a dream list of people, many of whom have big books. Of the 20 people I’ve either booked or am attempting to book, only four are men. I haven’t done this consciously—i.e. I’m not trying to be a counterweight to the dominance of male guests by others pods—but I do think it speaks to a changing tide in the world of ideas: Many of the most exciting books coming out are authored by women.
We’re in a new era of awareness about the equity of conversations—who gets a platform, a microphone, a book deal, a tenure-track job—but it also rests on all of us to pay attention to who we choose to listen to and who we vest with authority. I love men; there will be a lot of men on the podcast. But I’ve often found that the most illuminating and vibrant conversations are with women who don’t get to speak as much. May we hear them all and honor them with our time.