Courtney Smith: The Practical Magic of the Enneagram

Welcome to the first part of a four-episode special on metaphysical systems. These episodes don’t build on each other, per se—you can cherry pick what’s interesting to you—but they all go together. In this first set of systems, we’ll explore the Enneagram, Asterian Astrology, Human Design, and Tarot. Today, we’re kicking it off with Enneagram, specifically as interpreted by my dear friend, Courtney Smith, who is, quite frankly, one of the smartest people I know. 

I heardCourtney might be one of my soulmates for years before we finally met—not only because we have the same taste in people (we have many dear mutual friends), but also because she’s an Enneagram genius, and the sort of person who is happy to talk about G.I. Gurdjieff and the Fourth Way at a cocktail party. Courtney has a robust coaching practice—individuals, executive teams, women’s groups—where she integrates the Enneagram, which she studies under Russ Hudson, along with trainings from the Conscious Leadership Group, the Alexander Technique, and the Work of Byron Katie. She also adds her own perception and raging intelligence. Courtney is brilliant, particularly at assessing systems on both the micro and macro level, and she’s also exceptionally warm, excavating all of our human foibles and patterns for the treasures of promised growth. My favorite part of Courtney though is that she plays against type: I love finding the mystical and metaphysical in a woman who has a degree in mathematical economics from Wake Forest, a masters in Public Health from New York University, and a J.D. from Yale Law School. Courtney also worked as a consultant at McKinsey & Co. Okay, let’s get to our conversation.

MORE FROM COURTNEY SMITH:

Courtney Smith’s Website

Further Listening on Pulling the Thread:

ASTROLOGY: Jennifer Freed “A Map To Your Soul”

ENNEAGRAM: Susan Olesek “The Power of the Enneagram”

TRANSCRIPT:

(Edited slightly for clarity)

ELISE LOEHNEN: So obviously, I know your story, but besides just generally being one of my favorite people, you're one of my favorite varieties of people, which is a real box checker. And, you're fascinating to me, one, because you're so smart and you have one of those like Pac Man brains where I feel like I can give you a lot of information and then you distill it. But weren't you like a math engineering major, you have a master's in public health, and you have a JD from Yale, and now you coach the Enneagram. I just like the turn into the mystical from an unexpected upbringing.

COURTNEY SMITH: yeah, so, well, you're making me blush, just going to say that.

ELISE: It's also hot in here.

COURTNEY: It's true that I have some credentials from an earlier part of my life. And I do feel that, you know, if you told my 25 or 30 year old or even 35 or even 40 year old self that I'd be doing the work that I do and interested in questions about what it means to be a human being and Entertaining that there's a spiritual answer to that, I would have laughed in your face and maybe Given you the finger. I probably would have.

ELISE: So what happpened? I know, I mean, but like you, I think that my fascination with the metaphysical world is maybe confusing to some people, even though I find it endlessly, I find it, these are obviously the biggest questions, right? So what happened?

COURTNEY: Well, I do think that part of the older versions of myself that are Awesome and lovely and still with me, are, I do have a very practical orientation of, I want to be doing something here in this world. And I think there's plenty of ways to look at having a spiritual life that in sort of its most elevated sense is all about what does that mean in terms of how I conduct myself on a daily basis. But I certainly think that for most of us, you know, I grew up going to a pretty liberal church, that to me did not feel like the primary thrust of what religion was about, it was all about a belief system and less about my own individual navigation of this world and so a lot of my interest in mathematical economics and law degree and public health and management consulting...

ELISE: I forgot about McKinsey, yes.

COURTNEY: Was all about trying to figure out how the world works and then trying to figure out my spot within that. And, I still think that approach of how does the world work and what's my place within that, I think that is still true for me. I think that what happened is, though, as I had to do more work individually and see places that I was limiting myself and kind of take myself on the journey of, you know, I would say midlife expansion, midlife growth, midlife... ah, the way I've been doing things is not working for me, because of certain teachers and because of certain things I was exposed to, I began to see that actually some of those rational, empirical, logical, analytical ways of making sense of the world actually don't fully capture it. And that really had to be given to me one breadcrumb at a time, because if you had told me that's what was going to happen and told me the punchline, I would have said no. I really had to figure out for myself, and experience for myself, that there are parts of what it means to be a human being, there's parts of the ways the world is operating, that cannot be explained by a formula.

ELISE: Well, it's really interesting, also explain it. It makes so much sense, right? To like, understand systems of governance and government, understanding like the rules, the rules. You understand the rules of the 3D plane. And even your path toward the Enneagram, right, was through Mckinsey, through coaching. I mean, isn't that essentially business therapy in some ways?

COURTNEY: Yeah. I mean, I think this is why the Enneagram is like so resonated with me, and why I'm really passionate about talking with other people about it. Because I think that some people come to the Enneagram with already a spiritual orientation, but most of the time people come to the system, at least initially understanding it no differently than like a Myers Briggs or a Strength Finder or, you know, some other kind of categorization of how human beings kind of show up in this world and people usually come with a very specific, you know, I want to be more effective in my business, I want to be able to give feedback to the people who work for me and a better way. I want to be a better parent and understand how my children work or, you know, my spouse sees the world so differently than I do. Most people come to the Enneagram, I think, with a very, this world, very concrete understanding of how it could help them. And I think that's great. I think that that was my entry also. And so I like to meet people there because I think it is of real concern and then I like to surprise people and see if they're willing to continue to follow breadcrumbs with my guidance.

ELISE: And I'm sure people listening, many people have taken the ReadyTest or IEQ or one of these testing types to figure out their Enneagram number. But it is I love the Enneagram because it's of its mystical slash metaphysical roots and so I know, Just so people understand the history, and GI Gurdjieff is often credited with the Enneagram But he didn't create the psychological system He danced the symbol right and talked about how the Enneagram, this nine points contain Everything, right? Like the world and all of its component parts can be contained, can be held by this symbol.

COURTNEY: Yeah, so the origin of the symbol itself is a circle with a bunch of lines kind of, you know, going through in a pattern, how long it's been around and its origins are unknown. But as you mentioned, there is this man named Gurdjieff who's working In the, you know, early 1920s up until 1940s, I think, I believe, and he's really using the symbol of the Enneagram, which is how I think people understand it historically was used to sort of describe how evolution occurs, both in small ways and in big ways, how change happens and what creates resistance, Why does some change happen and then it falls back and regresses? Really sort of a symbol that captures the dynamicism of our universe. And then there's a man named Oscar Achazo who lived in South America in the 70s. And he's the first person that really takes that Gurdjieff work, which is about, really, what is the inner nature of the world? What are the unspoken laws? By which change happens, and he marries it with another very long standing Western tradition, which is captured in parts of the Kabbalah. It's captured in the seven deadly sins that, you know, you've been Picking apart in a beautiful way, there is a Western tradition that really dates back to, you know, 200 a.d., if not earlier, which is this idea of by categorizing human beings and understanding that there are predictable patterns in which human beings try to navigate this world, that is helpful information. And Achazo is the first to marry that western approach to, I want to see people as individuals and I want to try to categorize how they behave because that helps me be more effective. He marries with the broader spiritual tradition of the Enneagram, which is about what are we doing here and what are the laws that we're subject to in terms of how the world evolves that we don't actually really see that are happening underneath it all.

ELISE: Yeah. And just for, so one of the early fathers of the Enneagram, or one of the people credited, is vagaris Ponticus, so fourth century, the same desert monk who wrote down the eight demonic thoughts, demonic meaning distracting, which ultimately became the cardinal vices, but that those seven vices, and we don't really know, right, exactly how these things traveled through time and geography, but those seven vices show up in the enneagram plus deceit plus fear, right? Yeah. And what I love about the enneagram as I've come to look at it more closely, and I love Gergef and maybe we can talk about the law of three two, is that it, together, it's it's quite whole and the way that we move around and we can talk a bit about the Enneagram types and then how we move towards other types And they're all existent in each of us in a way, but it's a beautiful system because every type is wonderful and also I love it as a system because Whereas if you say I'm a Gemini, I don't really know what that I mean even as a Sagittarian I'm like, I love horses and I like independence and like I don't know Exactly what it means, or how to relate to other zodiac signs. Whereas with the Enneagram, when someone says, I'm an eight, you know, I know what I'm encountering.

COURTNEY: Yeah, so I think that, and I'm glad you brought up Evagrius because part of the way he's working with those original eight, the Greek word is logismai, is this idea that, All of us develop a personality. We all develop a set of habits around how we act, think, and feel reliably in this world. And we need that in order to function. I kind of like to say personality is the chosen survival strategy of human beings. And that is part of being a human being is to acquire a personality. But even from the very beginning, Evagrius, the Lotus Maya are all about, when I begin to become consumed and overly identified with my personality, and the personality becomes no longer of service to me, and instead starts driving me, it becomes hardened. It becomes less flexible, it becomes my only way of being in the world, that actually separates me from whether you call it source or God, or some of these broader values around love and compassion and peacefulness and truth, and aliveness. When I come to take myself as only being my personality, there's a real cost and price that I pay. And it is a separation from these larger, really beautiful parts of being alive, that we all aspire to, but don't realize how we're unknowingly playing a smaller game by being locked in to personality.

ELISE: So in that sense, like, when you think about Enneagram, and it's not a construct of culture or childhood, right? There's this idea that it's somehow more essential than that but I think we culturally overuse the word transcend, although I like how Ken Wilber says like transcend and include, transcend and include, is the idea, as you come to find yourself within the enneagram that you transcend, that you, become all nine types or just more your type?

COURTNEY: Yeah, so that's a great question. Most of us believe that you're born with your type. And the reason that we believe that, or the explanation we would give for that is you can think of each of the nine points on the Enneagram as an adaptive set of strategies, as I said, like a habituated pattern of thinking, feeling and doing that each of us developed in order to navigate this world. And part of the reason that type arises is because as each of us experienced difficulty and trauma and discomfort and pain and suffering, part of what happens when human beings experience difficulty is the same difficulty, the same fact pattern, can resonate very differently for different human beings. And so, part of what happens when a human being encounters challenge is not just, Oh, you hurt me, but it's how do I make meaning of the fact that you hurt me. Is it that there's something wrong with you? Is it that there's something wrong with me? Is it we should never have been involved in the first place? Is it that I need to fight and stand up for myself so that never happens again? Is it I need to make myself really small so that never happens again? So type is about how I made meaning of challenge that happened to me early in life and because of the way I made meaning of it, that's how my adaptive strategies arose and the way i'm making meaning Of what of the challenging parts of being a human being that is that's what I come like pre loaded with.

ELISE: Yeah.

COURTNEY: And so that is why type is about Is something that arises? I would say regardless of what your culture or family of origin looked like. And then to answer your second question, I think from my perspective, at least, you're always going to be the type that you are. So I'm a type six and I always will be a type six, but in order to be an effective person, in order to come into a situation and be able to navigate it, I really need the full range of behaviors available to me. I really need the full range of emotions. I really need the full range of how do I make meaning of this. And part of what happens is when we acquire a personality, we begin to think it's who I am. And the moment I say, I am this, by definition, I've already limited my range of possibility in a situation. So for example, if, you know, I am a nice person and then I get into a taxi cab and the guy starts driving me like all over the place and not taking me where I want to go. If I don't let myself be assertive and say, I need you to stop the car because I'm quote, a nice person. I'm actually not responding to reality as it's presenting itself.

ELISE: Right.

COURTNEY: And so the idea is that by actually studying and looking at the other eight ways of being, the other eight adaptive strategies that human beings have to navigate the world, I still am a type six, but I wear it more flexibly and I have greater range to access other behaviors or other ways of making sense of the world that actually I will get a better response.

ELISE: Right. That makes sense. Do you want to run us through and then we can talk about how it overlaps with sort of other modalities? Cause you offer an interesting blend in your coaching with your work with conscious leadership group and drama triangles and being above the line and below the line. Will you give us your view of the nine types?

COURTNEY: Sure. So, You know, this is obviously something I study all the time and other people read these are books that I'm condensing into really short descriptions. But for me what I like to do when I describe each of the types is I like to talk about what was that initial wound. In other words, when I experienced challenge and difficulty as a small child, what was the lens through which I saw that? Because the lens through which I saw that then becomes the foundation for a set of strategies that kind of take me back to that place. And so if you can understand that each one of the types is trying to optimize for a quality of a particular quality of experience, that helps you anticipate rather than like a catalog of thoughts and feelings and behaviors, it allows you to really kind of get in the skin Of each of the types and ask yourself. Okay, if I were optimizing for full aliveness at all times, How would I act? How would I conduct myself? And that is really the foundation of type.

So just to start with type 8 because I mentioned full aliveness, type 8 Do have this innate In their body, visceral experience of what does it feel like to be fully alive? Like fully turned on, fully aware of all the energetic potential that my mass contains. And it is really powerful, it is really substantial, it is like getting knocked over by a two by four, like if I really activated and got in touch with just how much Energy is inside me and it feels really good To be that powerful and that alive and that lit up With the experience of being actually alive in this world.

ELISE: Yeah.

COURTNEY: But what happens is, in order to maintain that quality of electric potential, eights can then become quite controlling. They can be Looking for pressure and conflict and a feeling of challenge, because that actually activates the quality of aliveness. And so eights then began to navigate and move through the world looking for, I want to feel you pushing back on me so that I can feel just how alive I am. And for many of us who are not eights, that can feel domineering, too much, aggressive, as I said, controlling. But from an eights perspective, it's all about, I want to feel activated.

ELISE: Yeah. And, like, you know an 8 when you see, I mean, most people have probably encountered 8s before. There is an intensity. One of my favorite 8s talks about how when she is in conflict, she feels like she's Neo in the Matrix and, like, the world slows down and she is just, like, she can just, like, jujitsu and grab language in a way that is at a different pace than everyone else. Like, she is formidable, and can be terrifying, but she would acknowledge that, too.

COURTNEY: I mean, some of my favorite people are eights. But I've been on a whole journey with my own relationship with that quality of being in the world. And it can be initially scary for those of us that it's not home based. But, I'm kind of addicted to it at this point, in terms of, you feel really Like here and very present in that aliveness And in very much when she says the neo and the matrix, in touch with reality as it's unfolding Because you are in touch with your own aliveness.

ELISE: Yeah. Eights are powerful.

COURTNEY: And we can all be that powerful actually then the nines, well, as the eight had sort of a bodily visceral sense of just of the sheer power and force that each human being actually has in their being, the nine, it's a much softer feeling of groundedness and feeling of profound connection with the entire fabric of the world. So there is a feeling in the nine, that I am myself, but I am also participating in something much bigger than just me. And because of that, I feel grounded and very calm and I feel a sense of unity. Many of us who are on spiritual journeys, this is sort of the quality that the Nine can effortlessly experience at times. It's kind of what's held up for the rest of us around, like, this is what enlightenment would feel like. And that, and have a

ELISE: I mean, every, every type has a shadow side as well, right? Where it, like, can tip into... Like the eight can be domineering, control, and the nines can be dissociative and numbing, right?

COURTNEY: Right and so from a nines perspective, if you can imagine that they felt this sense of unity and harmony and All is one and then as a young child, they experienced difficulty and pain and suffering, from their perspective, it felt like that was being shattered and like broken into a million pieces. I'm losing touch with this greater fabric. And so all of the nines adaptive strategies then are about actually, if I make myself smaller, you know, If I take out my own individual wants and desires, and if I develop strategies around comfort and disassociation and numbing, then I can still feel like there's a sense of unity, despite the pain and suffering in the world. And so nines end up really kind of, diminishing themselves in this effort to maintain contact with this broader whole.

ELISE: Yeah.

COURTNEY: And so we typically find nines very agreeable, pleasant to be around with, extremely diplomatic, but often inside the nine is a real internal battle around having to subvert their own wants and desires in order to maintain and to kind of numb and dissociate from information they're receiving in their bodies that things aren't going well, so that this kind of patina of harmony can be maintained.

ELISE: Right. Love those nines. Married to a nine. Or as he says, you've told me I'm a nine, so I'm a nine.

COURTNEY: Alot of us feel really grounded and calming, calmed around that nine way of being, because it is calming.

ELISE: Yeah. It's the top of the, it's the top of the circle, right? Like the peacekeeper, the mediator.

COURTNEY: Yeah, and in that ability, I mean, people talk about how we've had more presidents that are type nine than any other.

ELISE: Oh, interesting.

COURTNEY: because especially during moments of crisis, so like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, but also Ronald Reagan, Dwight Eisenhower.

ELISE: Interesting.

COURTNEY: Because of that ability to see, you know, like Obama, like Obama's line that, you know, we pray in the blue states and we whatever in the red states, like, you know, from his presidential, before he had declared, there is this in that ability to see the unity and the universality, there is a real ability to bridge difference and to mediate and to whole and create a feeling of wholeness that can handle dissonance and absorb dissonance. And so at moments of crisis, that's exactly what's sometimes is required.

ELISE: Interesting. I would have guessed that most presidents were eights or threes. Or ones maybe, I don't know. Nines.

Well I do think there's a read journey for nines too, because paradoxically president of the United States, that does feel like, for most of us, a real assertion of, you know, individuality and assertion of ambition, and assertion of desire and wants. But I think for most nines, and I think when you like look at the biographies of Washington, Obama, Lincoln, and some of these other nines, they actually talk about it as, this is not what I wanted to do

COURTNEY: there was this real feeling of being called and almost them recognizing that what is required for unity to be maintained is actually for me to step into my power. And that's the journey of the nine is to realize that in all the ways that they're diminishing themselves, they're actually creating more fragmentation and dissonance than they realize. And what they need to do is the opposite of what feels familiar, which is to make themselves bigger and to engage and assert themselves for the sake of unity.

ELISE: Interesting, fascinating. I thought I was a one and now I'm thinking I'm not a one. So tell us about the ones

COURTNEY: Well, so ones come into this world with a very beautiful sense of fundamental alignment and Integrity and this idea that all of the world is like a set of pieces and parts working together in touch with the divine, in touch with a larger order, a larger sense of laws, a larger purpose, a larger, Something bigger than themselves and we are all the nine sort of feels themselves like a tuning fork of connecting a feeling of divinity and sacredness to all the ways that human beings show up in this world. And so one's become very focused on being moral, principled, ethical and recognizing the divinity in themselves, but also the divinity in others. This idea of like fundamental respect, but again, from the perspective of this is a natural home state for the one to feel, and I should say also that feeling of being connected to something sacred and bigger than yourself also creates this feeling of fundamental goodness. Like there's a part of me that remains good, no matter what is happening to me around me by me, there is a kernel of divine goodness that's in all of us.

ELISE: Yeah.

COURTNEY: But the one that begins to overreach for that and try to get back to that home base. And does that often through being rigid and their belief systems. Overly judgmental of themselves and of other people and a real inability to tolerate imperfection, or they begin to orient to all the ways that life is deviating from that which is the larger plan or the larger order and they begin to only see what is wrong and needs to be fixed as opposed to remembering all that is right. And so it can become quite angry, critical, exacting on themselves and on other people.

ELISE: All right.

And so the animating emotion of ones is anger, the animating or I don't know, I don't know if it's right to call it an animating emotion of the nine, a sloth and the eight is lust, right?

COURTNEY: Yeah, so if we were to connect this back to some of the work that Evagrius did very early on, as you mentioned in the early a.d.'s, these predictable ways of being in the world that, harden and take us away from a relationship to reality or a relationship to source, he called the eights lust, which is about, as I described this, it's not sexual, it can be, but it is more about like a desire for intensity. A desire for like an overwhelming, and they wouldn't even use overwhelming, but just like an all in experience. And for the nine, The kind of adaptive strategy that no longer is adaptive because it's overused is one of sloth, which is not about being lazy. It is more about what I would call inertia and this kind of going with the flow, with what feels easy, with what feels comfortable, rather than risk. Dissonance and agitation and as you mentioned for the one, it's wrath, which is this anger at all of the ways that our world is flawed and has forgotten or is not, is failing to make itself known and Manifest forgetting the sacredness and so the destruction and the suffering and the pain that we see in our world Becomes for the one something that they are deeply angry about because it To them, it feels like we've forgotten that we're part of this bigger order.

ELISE: Mhm. Yeah, and I'll just flag here that, in working with Courtney, when she pushed on my anger, I've identified as a one, I've also been typed as a five, that she just doesn't think it's there for me. So we'll, we can come back to that and sort of like the mistyping. But let's go to the two.

COURTNEY: and what I would say, I think, I mean, all of us have, many of us have issues with anger. So, you know, the idea that wrath is the kind of dominant feeling state that we would associate with ones, all of us can have a unique and often distorted relationship with anger. What it is like for a one though is this kind of barely suppressed cauldron of rage that is sort of a constant familiar, it is like the undercurrent of the heart and then there's volatility of you know like daily happenings but that is that orientation there's like this frustration of like It could be like this and it's not. That is a fundamental part of how the one is seeing the world or viewing, experiencing the world.

ELISE: Right. Right. And I definitely have sort of some latent rage, particularly in my job, but I don't know that I'm quite there. I don't think I'm quite peak one, but we can talk about how many of the types look alike. So twos?

COURTNEY: Two's, they're the part of being a human being in the most elevated sense of the word that the two is in touch with is our capacity for love and love on in a really sort of direct of service. You know, looking into your eyes and wanting to care for you, wanting to be related to you, and there's an attunement and a deep compassion for the other that two's quite naturally experience when they're doing their best, but what happens for a little two is It feels like their ability to be part of love and to experience love when they experience challenge and difficulty, That is what felt at risk. And so twos then begin to take it upon themselves to be the agents of love in this world. And when they do that, there's a lot of overdoing and over caring for people in their spheres to the detriment of taking care of their own needs. And as they focus more and more on the needs of others and less and less on their own needs, martyrdom, resentment, a feeling of obligation, kind of unspoken contracts, where the two begins to hope that their expression of love towards others is going to come back around, and they're going to finally experience the love that they've been hoping for all along. That kind of unconscious agenda begins to distort and kind of pervertaint what start out as very generous acts. And so twos can feel overbearing to other people at times, poor boundaries. The one that's always giving, but can never receive, depleted, stuck in like a martyrdom scenario because of this dynamic they've set up with other people.

ELISE: Mm.

COURTNEY: And the original word for the feeling state of the two is pride. And what we mean by pride is not a like puffed up in the chest, not how we understand pride now, which is like, I'm. I feel good about who I am, but the original word for pride is putting myself on the realm of God rather than humanity. And it's in that I'm going to take care of others and I'm going to deny my own humanity, my own needs. That is the feeling state of pride for a two.

ELISE: Yeah, and I'm sure as you, as we're going through these types, and we'll talk about testing after and sort of how far it can get you and how short it can also fall, but probably everyone can think of a two. I know so many, so many twos, like wonderful, nurturing twos.

COURTNEY: Yeah.

ELISE: Threes?

COURTNEY: So threes, come into this world and understand that one of the best parts of being human is feeling of value. And feeling a deep sense of there's a particular reason I am here and I am going to, whatever that reason is, I'm going to knock it out of the park. I am going to take on the role I was given the moment I showed up in this world and I will be so radiant in it, I will have played my part and have been of deep value, and a deep contribution to this world. But that feeling of being of value that young threes Experience then becomes the thing that they're sort of overreaching for. And threes begin to confuse and begin to get attached to achievement and the checking of boxes and the achievement of goals, as the way they demonstrate value rather than, I was valuable the moment I arrived, and going to just be myself and be a human being. And that's the way I add value. The three begins to believe it's about sort of their contribution, the external consequences of what they do in the world that make them of value, rather than just in of themselves.

ELISE: Yeah.

COURTNEY: And so threes can then get on these kind of treadmills of success, where they're hoping that just the next goal will make them happy, but then the next goal is achieved, and it doesn't. And so then a new goal needs to be set, they can be quite workaholic in terms of focusing on Achievements and contribution to the detriment of emotionally connecting with other people and because of that wanting to feel of value, threes can also sometimes look outside themselves for what's externally rewarded, either in their family system or in their culture and begin to perform and focus their energy on the things that others care about, more than themselves. And then sometimes threes can wake up in midlife and realize that they've been looking for glory, looking for radiance in areas of life that actually don't resonate for them is as individuals. And for that reason, the feeling state that we talk about that Evagrius identified, that then got lost in translation is one of vainglory, is the way that I've been taught by my teacher Russ Hudson. Some people say deceit, some people say vanity. I love the word vainglory because it translates literally as, I'm looking for glory in the wrong places. Which is really the challenge for the three, is if I set my sights on something, I'm all in and I can execute at this beautiful level, but I become so focused on execution and what other people want and acquiring radiance that I lose myself in the process. And I never find that glory and radiance that I was initially so hungry for.

ELISE: Right. And a lot of CEOs are threes, right? Leaders, I would imagine celebrities.

COURTNEY: Yeah. And in particular, because threes are so accomplished and gifted at achieving goals. A lot of time in celebrity culture, you'll get a lot of threes because this is kind of be best in class in that field. And so we get a lot of three exemplars in all range of fields, athletes, actors, singers, politicians, writers, because they're very determined to excel.

ELISE: No, it makes a lot of sense. All right fours?

COURTNEY: Okay. So fours are really connected with, this is a difficult one for many of us to, understand, but they're connected to the idea that there's an infinite depth and mystery to life. That part of being a human is the exploration of what it means to be human. And there is like a deep, just kind of falling into and fascination with I'll never know. And there's something about that that feels so yummy and deep and unknowable, but like kind of delicious that it's unknowable. Like a fundamental part of being human that is not necessarily being functional, but when it's gone The world feels very flat and very black and white and two dimensional. And so This this feeling of depth or soulfulness, I might even call that the four feels very experiences quite naturally, then becomes that which they're overdoing and overreaching for. And the way they do this is becoming overly focused on who am I and how do I differentiate who I am from everyone else. And so fours often end up becoming quite judgmental about how everything else is shallow or flat, or different than they are in that quest to kind of continue that search For the mystery in themselves and so forth often end up setting themselves apart from the world and apart from others In that attachment to being different and so fours then sometimes make trouble for themselves because there's really a pushing away of the world and a deliberate disdain for how the way the world works. Because from the force perspective, I'd rather be in touch with my soulfulness and that, which makes me different than be in relationship with others and compromise my connection to this inner core and so fours can when they're not doing well become kind of non functional or have a hard time figuring out how to navigate the world because of this desire to be in touch with the beautiful mystery.

ELISE: And they're typically are artists. Doesn't everyone kind of want to be a four?

COURTNEY: Yeah, I feel that, for whatever reason in the American culture, there is this, you know, romanticization of, you know, the longing to, to know oneself. And actually, all of us are interested in knowing ourselves. That's part of what the Enneagram is about, actually, is like, initially, for many people, mirror me, show me who I am. So that's a very human thing. But the degree of attachment to which the four is basically on a, never ending search, like a frustrated, I will never find who I am, it's an endless inquiry, and that is painful, but I kind of like the pain of it. That piece of the quest to know oneself, it's like most of us who are not forced can't really understand the agony of it.

ELISE: Yeah. Are they envy? Is that their?

COURTNEY: Yeah, so they're envy. And so we sort of think of envy is more about, something's always missing it. I'm so close to finding myself. I'm so close to, you know, Coming in contact with, you know, the core of beauty or mystery or, you know, like basically kind of like this origin of source in me, but then I miss the mark. And this is never quite, and I do that in relationships. I do that in jobs. I do that with objects. I do that with projects. I have these like high expectations for how this could be the thing that connects me to depth and texture. And then every time my hopes are kind of dashed.

ELISE: it. Yeah. I do love my fours. I feel like people are always angling to be a force. Maybe they're the rarest. I don't know. Yeah.

COURTNEY: A lot of times because they have a moodiness and one of the other things I should say is that in that desire to feel different, fours can really over identify with the negative spectrum of feelings rather than the positive ones. Because from their perspective, everyone wants to be happy. Everyone wants to be joyful and no one wants to grieve. No one wants to be, You know, in touch with all of the ugly parts of being human. And so I'm going to be that person so that I can feel how different I am than the rest of the world. But then fours kind of take over that territory and forget that they can also be light.

ELISE: Yeah.

COURTNEY: But because of that association of fours with depth of emotion, we also romanticize that, because the reality is many of us are. internally quite ruled by emotion. But it's at a whole nother level for the four.

ELISE: Right. Right. Fives. I thought I was a five. I don't think I'm a five, but I love fives too.

COURTNEY: Yeah. So in the same way that the four is in touch with the idea that part of being a human is this eternal exploration of meaning and depth and, you know, what are we doing here? What am I all about? The five is also equally interested in that, but is experiencing it much more from like a mental construct. And so is really in touch with the part of being a human that is all about what is yet to be illuminated or what is yet to be known. And this beautiful sense of each moment, there's something new to be discovered. Each moment, there's something that was not previously seen that is. And the more pieces of that I can touch, the more I get a sense of, like a sense of deep clarity and mental stillness about this is, this is how the world works. And there's a great feeling of calmness and, you know, I see the underlying structure that is really supporting the world. Supporting the world is a sixth phrase, but you might, you know, like many fives are scientists and so it's It's not just that we're animals. It's, you know, that we're human beings. It's not just that we're human beings, we're made of molecules. And it's not just that we're molecules, we're made of atoms. It's not just that we're atoms, we're made of neutrons. And so there's this like, focusing down into like, what is the essential makeup of the world that creates a feeling of clarity that fives are really searching for and what ends up happening is fives then begin to be quite focused on understanding the world at the expense of being in the world and that desire to see underlying structure. Fives begin to think that they have to not participate, they need to be detached from the world in order to see that, and they begin to withdraw more and more and more for the sake of what they would say like neutrality or objectivity. And paradoxically, the more they withdraw as fives become less and less healthy, the more delusional they can become. And so there's a real sort of isolation that is part of the five way of being in the world and also sort of a belief that everything could be understood through the head. That everything at the end of the day is a mental construct and so a kind of forgetting about the other parts of us, our hearts and bodies, and what it feels like to connect and be in those parts of ourselves, that the five kind of tends to override and forget about. The original sin or way that this personality kind of gets over hardened, and kind of doubled down upon by the five, the word that we use is avarice, which got translated to greediness, but really we think of it as a withholding, this kind of a stinginess of like under what circumstances do I allow my full humanity to come forward? Do I allow myself to fully participate? The five, it becomes very, very choosy about when he or she's willing to do that, on what terms, is it like a certain subject, we can relate in this way. And the more withdrawn, the more they believe in their own sort of, I need to be stingy with my humanity, the more withdrawn they become.

ELISE: Yeah, I think my oldest is five, but we'll see. Sixes?

COURTNEY: Sixes. Sixes. So this is, this is my type, and maybe you're a type, who knows, and similar to five, sixes, there is this ability to see reality clearly and see all the different things that are unfolding in reality, sixes feel profoundly oriented and supported in their ability to see reality. And that feeling of support allows sixes to feel comfortable about the way forward in life. And so there's a deep feeling of stability and I trust my relationship with reality and it enables me to move forward. And that's a delicious. quality that sixes came into this world naturally experiencing. But from a sixes perspective, that feeling is lost when we experience challenge and difficulty, and it feels like the rug has been pulled out from underneath us, and there is nothing below.

And there becomes this kind of fundamental lack of orientation to how am I going to make my way through the world. And sixes can become, are quite fearful of how do I make a decision. And we begin looking outside ourselves for advice, for systems, for belief structures, for communities, for partners who can help bring back that feeling of support and stability we're looking for as we move forward. And so then sixes become overly focused on trying to create security and stability through their relationships with others rather than sourcing it through their own decision making and their own trust and their own ability to move forward. Six is also in that relentlessness of trying to figure out how does, you know, what are all the points of view? I need to see them all before I can figure out how to go forward. There's a restlessness of the mind that actually from a Six's perspective is they're trying to calm themselves down by trying to learn everything and try to understand everyone's point of view before they make a decision, but it often ends up only creating more anxiety for the six and confusing them all the more.

And so then sixes can be quite reactive about how what they're trying to do is not really working for them. And we can get lost in being dutiful, being overly responsible, trying to not please others because we want them to love us, but please others because we want them to, we want to feel like they're on our side as we move forward in the world. And that begins to cause sixes to lose track of themselves and then get very angry about it.

ELISE: And That animating impulse is fear?

COURTNEY: Yeah, it is. And the way I learned it through my teacher, Russ Hudson, is it's because all types have fear at different points. He likes the word and I agree, angst, which is this sort of existential dread that can never be truly satisfied. So either I'm, you know, scanning and trying to anticipate what's going to go wrong. Or if I even land for one moment on actually things seem to be all right, it's kind of like, well, I don't trust that. What am I missing? And so it's kind of this like never resting, waiting for the other shoe to fall, that is not a we make up the story that it's about specific fears, but it's really much more existential than that.

ELISE: Mm. Got it. Sevens?

COURTNEY: So sevens really come feeling The exuberance and possibility of life and what can be created. And that feeling of who knows what's possible naturally creates a feeling of exuberance and freedom and what I would call causeless positivity because we never know what's going to happen around the corner. And that means I can always find joy and always find freedom. And so sevens come in touch with the ability of human beings to create a new and the joy that comes from that. But become overly attached to sustaining that quality. And experience pain and challenge specifically through the lens of you're depriving me of joy. You're depriving me of possibility. You're depriving me of freedom. And so sevens then begin to experience the world through a sensation of I feel trapped. I feel like you're forcing me to stay in discomfort in a way I don't have to. And so sevens can quick tend to be quite fidgety, they tend to use their mind to anticipate and kind of leave the present moment and imagine what's possible. But they're in doing so their tolerance for discomfort lessons and lessons and lessons, and so there's like almost like a frenetic energy, in that I've got to keep moving so that I never feel trapped. And so there is this kind of like butterfly refusing to be pinned down quality to Sevens, where Ironically, because they're never landing in the moment, they're never actually experiencing true joy, are generating ideas, possibilities, companies, plans, you know, it would be great, we should do this. And so it's very charming and a really, really fun ride, but can be exhausting. And can feel like you're actually never taking in the goodness of what you're experiencing because you're so quickly on to the next thing.

ELISE: And they're, the word is gluttony.

COURTNEY: Yeah, gluttony, which is really all about, We tend to think of it less like about like over consuming and more about like I want the buffet like I want every taste. Like this one's pretty great but that one might be better, like that kind of quality.

ELISE: Yeah. Yeah, I love my sevens. They're party animals. And, but I don't identify.

COURTNEY: Yeah, yeah. Well, Robin Williams is a great example of a seven capturing the shadow and the beauty of the seven because it's so charming. It's so hilarious. Like it's so playful. You know, the machinations his mind is doing as he, you know, laughs at himself and others. I mean, it's just, it's delightful and it's also really exhausting. And how do we have a real conversation of depth if this is the only way you're willing to be?

ELISE: Mm.

COURTNEY: And that becomes the trap for sevens that they put themselves into.

ELISE: So, people listening, I mean there are a million short free tests online, and then there's, I've done the Ready R H E T I through the Enneagram Institute, which typed me as a one, I've done tests that type me as a five, and then Courtney thinks I'm a six, as she broke it down for me at dinner last night. She might be right.

COURTNEY: I might

ELISE: You might be right.

COURTNEY: might not, but I might be.

ELISE: Why, and I guess testing just inherently is always going to be limited, right? Or is it like who we want to be? Is it that the six, by coming out as a one, that somehow gives me the confidence or the surety to escape my anxiety?

COURTNEY: I really do think that there is a romantization of the one for the six by the six for that reason, because we're longing for that certainty of what to do. But I also believe that regardless of your type, it's really just difficult. I mean, there are so many studies time and again that people are just not really able to accurately see themselves. And on so many different domains and so I think that's, it's not about the ready or any test itself. It's more about that human condition. Someone typed me as a six and I overrode that and said I was a one instead initially. And then really had to be open to hearing feedback from a lot of other people and then I think the other thing that's especially tricky, like the strength of the Enneagram system, but also its weakness from a typing perspective, type manifests as your habituated behavior patterns. However it's predicated upon the underlying structure or beliefs you have to have about the world in order for that behavior pattern to make sense.

ELISE: Right.

COURTNEY: And that's like a subterranean level to self that most of us are not aware of. So I can tell you that I'm organized, I can tell you that I'm conscientious. but why am I that way? I can give you some language around wanting to be, do a good job. But what does that actually mean? Why do I want to do a good job? What happens if I don't do a good job? And it's that level of inquiry that's really, really hard to do in a forced answer, forced choice test like the Ready or any of the other ones that are available online. So for me, I really like them because I do think they can narrow down the range to two or three. And I think that whether you work with a professional to get typed thereafter or you talk to other people in your lives and have them in your life and talk, listen to their feedback, or you even just hold two open as possibilities and part of the growth process, I mean, the Enneagram is designed to build self awareness. And so even giving yourself permission to not settle on type for six months to a year and say, These are the two that I'm actively exploring. You're going to learn a lot from that. What's interesting

ELISE: learn a of these, you hear it all the time, culturally people saying, well, like I'm a Virgo or I'm a, you know, I'm a Virgo rising. So this explains my attention to detail, et cetera, or like we start to use these things as crutches in some ways or shortcuts, which is helpful, right? If you want to know who you're contending with, but I would imagine at a certain point it also becomes a hindrance or the way that we can become stuck. And as you said at the beginning, Gurdjieff. was all about movement. Right? Will you talk just briefly because it's a whole subject of a whole nother podcast, but about the law of three and sort of this animating the way that he sees growth?

COURTNEY: Well, this is something that I know like you've had Cynthia Bourgeot on and lots of other people who write really beautifully and talk about this, But if you look at the Enneagram symbol itself There is a circle and then all of those different lines inside there some of those lines are a triangle that connect 9, 3, and 6 and what this is supposed to demonstrate is if you start with a principle of unity, and then begin to differentiate into self. The moment I stake a claim around I am. The moment I name a tree. The moment I call this planet we're sitting on Earth. The moment I give identity to anything. By definition, I am also giving identity to its opposite. And there cannot be a thing without a non thing. And that's actually the foundations upon which self, trees, the earth, anything grows. Because the law of three is about, if we say three represents in the Enneagram, the coming forward of the I, or the coming forward of the thing. The resistance of its opposites actually what provokes and causes the eye to change and evolve.

And there is a higher order. A higher vibration, a different concept of self that I can grow into if I allow myself to experience and value and work with resistance. And that is the Law of Three, which is I move forward in what I want, I affirm my I. I want this, and I experience resistance, a negating force. No, you can't have this. No, it's not going to work that way. But what about this? Someone I perceive stands in my way. And then my opportunity is to see what's the version of what I want. What's the version of who I am? What's the broader way I can see the world? Where these two things are no longer in opposition. And when I'm able to develop a mindset or a perspective that resolves that polarity, I grow.

ELISE: Right.

COURTNEY: And that's really one of the foundational principles of self growth that's embedded in the Enneagram. But it is also true, not just at the self level, but from a Gurdjieff perspective, the way the world changes. And all of the world can be seen through the lens of there's always some force pushing for something, another force resisting, and our job is to see how to hold them both.

ELISE: I think Bourgeault describes that as affirming, denying, reconciling. That's, that transcend and include.

COURTNEY: Yeah, and that reconciling is not a compromise. It's a true something new comes of this that is previously not available to me.

ELISE: Yeah. And she describes the metaphors she uses are sort of the seed going into the soil and then it's either sort of water or sun, I can't remember, or that the wind hits the sail at a certain angle and the boat is propelled forward but this growth is driven from these two forces meeting in the middle.

COURTNEY: And how can I describe that relationship? How can I build a relationship between those two things that no longer sees them in opposition? Like, what's the element that needs to be introduced that forces them to collaborate and work together and literally synthesize into something new?

ELISE: Right. So thinking about it, trying to like live my new sick self. Rather than putting myself out in the world and looking for confirmation that I should be full of fear or anxiety, to be met by resistance and then to move beyond it is growth rather than looking for confirmation of what I feel is true.

COURTNEY: right? Like I'm scared of this So I want to do this, something's getting in my way, it's, this is the thing I'm experiencing as resistance, but perhaps there's another way of holding this that's not about fear, that then these two things feel in allyship.

ELISE: Right? And I know we've gone long, but just because I think it's relevant, will you wrap us up here cause in a way when you talk about conscious leadership group and Diana Chapman's work and below the line and above the line and This idea that the world is happening to me below the line and when I'm above the line it's happening by me, That also feels like you're either stepping into a co creative effort with this law of three Accepting this resistance and allowing it to move you or you're acting like this person's resisting me because I'm a victim And is that accurate?

COURTNEY: Yeah, so, I mean, Just to back us up for a moment, I first encountered the Enneagram through doing my own personal development work with Conscious Leadership Group, which is run by Diana Chapman and Jim Detmer, and They are really gifted at curating from a number of different sources to put together a pretty comprehensive offering of what does it mean to be conscious in this world and the Enneagram is one of those tools That just I took you know went under this Big rabbit hole that I'll never emerge from, thankfully, but I think it's really important to say that whether it's conscious leadership group or something else, the Enneagram is really a map of different human strategies for encountering challenge and different human strategies that ultimately cause us to forget that there is a self here that is beyond personality.

ELISE: Right.

COURTNEY: And so, one of the things I experience people as challenged by with the Enneagram, which you were speaking about a little bit, is it can be tempting to read all the books and to just kind of double down on, well, that's the way it two is, or I guess this is just who I am. And part of the reason that happens is because the Enneagram needs to be married with tools for how do I actually work with this. And so you might sort of say that the Enneagram is providing language for understanding the affirming and negating forces in your

ELISE: Mm hmm.

COURTNEY: But unless you have some sort of modality that's helping you reconcile those forces, be it conscious leadership group or your own therapy or a spiritual group or work one on one with a coach, unless you have an active ingredient like that, You can read all you want about the Enneagram and growth is not going to happen and so that's why for me I marry so much of the tools of conscious leadership group with my work on the Enneagram because I really don't see how the the Enneagram can be used effectively without some sort of chosen tools and practices.

And one of the systems that Conscious Leadership Group offers that I think is really valuable that we talked about in our Substack article is this lens of is the world happening to me or is it happening by me and for me. And in the lens of to me, I am needing to defend, promote and protect, and you can basically think of the Enneagram, your Enneagram type as your chosen way of being below the line. These are the strategies that I've learned to navigate what feels like bad stuff happening way out of my control. And then I get a choice whether I want to use some of these strategies that I've honed really brilliantly over the years, but change the way I relate to them. So I still have the strategy, but it's not who I am. And when I change the way I hold my relationship to it, when it no longer becomes this is me, it just becomes like, this is one of the tools in my toolbox that I've honed really, really well. I can use this or I can pick another one, that is what I would call the reconciling force that allows you to begin to shift the way you relate to your experience and to become, to see and take responsibility for the way you're making meaning of the world, which is actually the thing that's driving whether your experience of the world.

ELISE: Mm hmm. And we talked about in that newsletter, when we are above the line. We are co creating arcs. We're seeing opportunities or what's happening to us as learnings or as useful resistance. It's hard to stay above the line though. Most of us are below the line most of the time, right?

COURTNEY: Yeah, I mean, and that's why it's like good to have a laugh about it and and be compassionate because again from an evolutionary perspective, You know, being in a state of fear is really adaptive. It keeps you alive. So You know, we just there's a lot that we protect and hold on to when we live life from below the line, but there's a lot that we miss out on.

ELISE: Right.

COURTNEY: and That's what above the line is about, is really sort of reminding human beings of when I'm not operating from fear. What is it possible for me to do? Or from the perspective of the Enneagram type, when I'm not so attached to this search I've kind of developed for myself around either full aliveness or peacefulness or being an agent of love or feeling fundamental purity or, you know, I can go around the circle, when I actually trust that I can experience that whenever I want, That it's not about the external circumstances of my life, then how do I make my way through the world? Then what choices do I make? What is possible? And that's what it feels like to be a co creator. Beautiful.

ELISE: Beautiful. Well, thank you.

COURTNEY: It's been really fun. I'd come over and hang out with you anytime.

ELISE: I hope that Courtney Smith continues to bring her brilliant mind and work more out into the world. She currently leads groups and I’m pushing for her to write a book because she has one of those rare abilities to take so many different models and systems and marry them, break them down, distill them in ways that helps us lead, I guess we would say, more conscious, more evolved, more revealed lives. We talk about these concepts more generally, loosely, culturally as the vertical, which I would say is our connection to something more—what ever that means to you, the source, energy—and then the horizontal, which is how we lead our days, our lives and so often we partition these two spaces into different zones and I love people like Courtney who encourage us to spill the vertical into the horizontal and to bring more awareness to how we’re leading our quotidian, very basic daily interactions and how to we make those above the line and how do we continue to grow and get bigger. Thank you for listening, as always, I’ll see you next week.