Nicole Avant: Working with the Divine
Nicole Avant is a philanthropist, filmmaker, and former diplomat. In her recent memoir, Think You’ll Be Happy, Nicole describes attending to the grief and shock of her mother’s unthinkable murder—she was shot in the back by a home intruder in 2021—by creating a living legacy in her honor. Her mom, Jacqueline Avant, had turned her Los Angeles home into a refuge for artists, politicians, and world-changers as the partner to Nicole’s father, entertainment mogul Clarence Avant, who is the subject of Nicole’s beautiful documentary,The Black Godfather. Nicole grew up sitting at the feet of extraordinary artists like Bill Withers, Oprah Winfrey, Quincy Jones, Sidney Poitier watching as her parents navigated the world to make it better for future generations. In today’s conversation, we talk about that legacy—as well as Nicole’s relationship to the divine. Like her parents, she is a master connector—putting people together to see what unfolds. Let’s turn to our conversation now.
MORE FROM NICOLE AVANT:
Think You’ll Be Happy: Moving Through Grief with Grit, Grace, and Gratitude
The Black Godfather, on Netflix
Follow Nicole on Instagram
TRANSCRIPT:
(Edited slightly for clarity.)
ELISE LOEHNEN: You always look so glamorous, Nicole. I want your closet. I know this is your mother's specialty, but I want you to teach me how to be a person in the world.
NICOLE AVANT: You always look good. By the way, I have that sweater you're wearing.
ELISE: Oh, you do?
NICOLE: Yes, I do. But thank you.
ELISE: No, I feel like every time I've ever seen you in the wild, you are the most put together person, maybe in Los Angeles. I'm going to say that.
NICOLE: My mom was very focused on, you know, like I say in the book, had to have her face on, try to look your best, wear whatever you want to wear that you feel the most comfortable in, and just kind of put that out into the world and I finally listened to her. I fought it, because I was a huge tomboy growing up. So I was always in soccer cleats. I mean, I have a picture of me in my prom dress that shot from the feet up because my mom was mortified that I wanted to wear my soccer cleats. And I was in a dress and I didn't want to be in a dress and I didn't want to be in pantyhose. It was like, what are all these things? And then one day I woke up at, I don't know, 20 and decided to put on a dress and then I kind of went back and then again at 40 and I never turned back.
ELISE: Yeah, it's amazing that that's where you feel comfortable. I find I'm like the entropy of my midlife is how much cozier can I get? The opposite.
NICOLE: no, but you know, that's why people see me in caftans and muumuu's. I'm like, cause I can do one and done. I'm just going to throw it on and put on some shoes and I'm out the door. Cause it is about comfort.
And, and I don't, I really just don't feel good about myself, no one does, when you're uncomfortable. And it shocks me at the lengths that people will go through every day. I get awards and I get special things, but everyday life... life is hard enough. So I'm not adding anything that makes it any more uncomfortable.
ELISE: I do agree with you that it's, if I do need to get dressed up, it's not a complicated outfit. It's a dress. And then I'm done.
NICOLE: Yeah. That works. That works.
ELISE: Layers? What are layers? So, you have this line in your book, what was Bill Withers talking about your dad, "he puts people together and they do what they do." and this feels like it's part of your lineage. Is that fair? Like, that seems also like what you do in the world.
NICOLE: it is actually, and I didn't realize it until, I don't know, a couple of years ago when I started working for President Obama, who was senator at the time. He was actually a state senator when I met him. All of a sudden, it felt like, Oh, wait a minute. I can do all this. Wait, I can put you in rooms together with people that I think will really like you and appreciate you and respect you and want to get involved in whatever your mission is. And it brought me a lot of joy. It brought me joy to see people connecting. It brought me joy to see positive intentions actually manifest into something great. And so that's when I realized, okay, I don't know if this is going to turn into a job at some point, but I don't even care because I really do love putting people together and then watching whatever happens. Sometimes nothing happens, but a lot of the times it does, but even if it doesn't, it's the action of trying to align energies that I think will fit and benefit each other and therefore benefit society.
ELISE: And is that something that's felt? Because I think that there's a difference, and you can feel it in the book, of this, I'm just guided here, and I don't know what will happen, but something might happen, versus feeling like a puppet master, where you're sort of, I know what I want the outcome to be. Is that true, and what does that feel like, as a sense?
NICOLE: It is true. Sometimes I get too in my head and I want to control the outcome because I see the outcome so clearly in my head. So I just know that I know that I know that it's going to end up that way. And like I said, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, or sometimes it's close. The lesson for me has been, the intention can always be what I want, but then I have to really let go and say to the universe, whatever your will is for this intention that I have, let it be. And then that takes the pressure off of me deciding on what's going to happen between this group of people or these two people. It takes the pressure off when I just really decide to co create with the universe and say, okay. I'm going to be clear with my intention and my energy, but I have no idea if this is in divine alignment with you. So I'll surrender it. I'll put it out there and I'll do the work and then I'm going to surrender and let go. And that seems to work the best, regardless, it's always a good outcome no matter what, even if they don't connect, another connection starts out of it, or another door opens, or another door closes for somebody else to walk in. There's always a divine orchestration.
ELISE: You're a person of deep faith and you watched your father do this in practice, right? Putting people together, making things. Were you bad at it at an ever, at any point? Have you learned how to do it through practice or just entirely through intuition?
NICOLE: A lot of practice, lots of hits and misses. I think we talked about this, the book Creative Visualization, I don't know if you remember, it just hit its 40th anniversary and my godfather gave me the book and it changed me. It was so simple about your thoughts create, you know, your words create, Use your imagination for good. And I thought, what is this book? My mom lived this way more than my father, and it definitely has helped me throughout my life, but the big game changer for me was aligning with the universe and aligning with God on it so that I don't control it. And I had a big problem with that. So now when I write everything out, I end it with, you know, my intention is that this works out for the highest good of all concerns and that it's divinely aligned with the universe. And then I end with, thy will be done. Because the pressure of trying to be the orchestrator, because I realized, oh, I'm not the divine orchestrator. I can co create with the divine orchestrator, but I had to learn the practice of really coming in, being clear, but then also saying, thy will be done.
ELISE: Yeah.
NICOLE: you know?
ELISE: It's such a dance because when these things happen, like when that sacred spark hits and something happens and you ignite, you know, you are a formidable presence in the creation of a presidency. For example, you know, your early support of Obama, it's hard to not be like, I am the master of the universe. And that is not how you come across at all, but it's very hard. You can get drunk on
NICOLE: Absolutely, it's very enticing, especially when they all start manifesting and it's one after the other. And you think it's you. And I've had to look at myself many times in the mirror and say, okay, there is a throne. There's somebody on it. And guess what? Not you. It's not you. And I've had to remind myself of that, which is okay, yes, be clear with my intentions. Yes, you know, be conscious of what I'm imagining every day. But, you know, at the same time, really to your point, it is a divine dance and I'm not doing it by myself. And as soon as I start to think it's me, or I'm doing it by myself, or, Oh, I'm such a great manifester. That's when everything just goes to shit. You know, that's the universe says, okay, we'll show you, we'll show you, you know?
ELISE: Yeah. I was talking to this woman, Ann Emerson. I don't know if you've ever spoken to her, done a session with her, and she was saying to me an amazing line. She said, you know, manifestation, it's like a tricky word. Obviously, it's so culturally loaded. But for me, manifestation is losing the conflict.
NICOLE: Oh, I love I'm writing...
ELISE: I know. Write that down. Losing the conflict. And we were talking about a pattern that I was like, I am back in this pattern. I recognize it. I'm like, it's such a visible pattern for me and I don't know whether this is a pass through and this is an opportunity for me to complete this pattern on a higher level or whether I am. just a fool who never learns. And she was like, well, there's some big spiritual truth that you're in it. But, if that is resonant, what are the patterns in your life and watching your father, the Black Godfather, Kingmaker, right, and your mother, like, what do you think that you're building to, I guess would be my question, like, what is your sense of yourself? You write, which I think is well put, "I'm both leading and working out how best I can support leaders." And what does that mean for you in practice?
NICOLE: For me, every day my intention is always to be like a conduit for the divine in which, whichever way I find myself. So in whatever situation, my intention is always to be, okay, let me be the messenger in this situation. Let me be the conduit in this situation. And sometimes, you know, whether it's I'm producing a film or I'm writing a book or I'm working in philanthropy, whatever it is, it's always, I try to look at myself now as someone who works with the divine, someone who is a conduit, someone who says, okay, if you're going to speak through me today, then speak through me, behave through me, act through me, show me where I can be a blessing. You know, and I allow blessings to come into my life as well, and I think part of the pattern for me is really being consciously aware, which I never really get there until I just sit down for a minute, alignment for me is sometimes hard in the pure silence, so I always in my mind, at least start with gratitude, what I'm thankful for the very little things. Like yesterday I sat outside for five minutes. I had five minutes ago. I'm grateful for the sun. I'm grateful that I could hear the birds singing. I'm grateful that I have a roof over my head. I'm grateful that I just ate breakfast and I'm grateful that I have freedom.
And all of a sudden I noticed. As soon as I start with thank you, thank you of everything before I go to sleep, when I wake up in the morning, my energy shifts and connects to something completely different. And then honestly, I go with wherever it tells me to go. Wherever I'm supposed to go that day, then I'm going that way. And and all these habits really came from my mom and my dad, but especially my mom, putting me in situations that I was very uncomfortable in and putting me on purpose. Just, you can't be comfortable all your life. So yes, you're going to go to camp and you're going to play sports and no, you don't like it right now. You're either going to love it or you're going to hate it. We'll have to see. But if I don't put you in situations that require you to then ask yourself the question, where is my energy going towards? What do I like? What am I good at? What am I not good at? You don't know your soul unless your soul is really put into situations to figure out who it is. You know? And I think that there's so many, all of us, especially as women, we're all asking, who do you want, you know, what do you want to do and who do you want to be? You get it. Everyone's so confused. And I think it's because we're so focused on what do you want to do on the earth, but we don't know who we are as souls.
We don't even know who we are. And I think it's very important. I know on my journey, it's, I know the things that I really like to do and I'm really good at. And I also know the things that I'm not. So I always like to say to people when they're like, Oh, you'd be great at this. I always say, no, I wasn't anointed for that. It's okay. Totally fine. Somebody else was anointed for that. I'm not anointed for that. You do not want me to do that. And it's okay, because all of us serve a purpose. All of us are here. That's why Bridal showers, baby showers, parties, whatever, we all call our girlfriends, okay, who's going to do this? Who's good at the organizing? Who's good at getting this? Who's good. Everyone has a natural gift that they just can do with their eyes closed. And that's what I mean by the anointing. You know, I've got friends where I'll say, okay, no question. You could put this event together. No question. You can make this happen.
But all of us have different gifts. And I think I'm just so grateful that my mom put me in situations so that I could, you know, theater camp, okay, didn't love it that much, but it helped me with. Being in front of people and performing in front of people and not being so afraid of everything. So I just think it's been a lot of trial and error. And I think that's for everybody is trial and error, but you have to try things. I think that all of us decide before we try on what we're going to like and what we're good at. And you don't know, it's like after the tragedy of my mom, I met so many people in law enforcement who shared with me that the reason they're in law enforcement is because something tragic and terrible happened to them at a very, very young age. And they decided in that moment, they were going to go out and be heroes for other people. They were going to go out and be the hero, they wanted to fulfill that pain in their heart that they had because of someone taken away from them. When this man shared it with me, this police officer, he goes, do you know how many of us come from tragedy? Do you know how many of us have had a family member killed? Do you know how many of Had something happened, carjacking this, that, where we know, we can either go down the road of despair and destruction, or we can try to turn it around and surf. And show up for other people, people in the fire department, same type of thing. I hear it all the time. Oh, my house burned down when I was... I don't even think about these things, you know, or my neighbor's house burned down or, you know, my cat was stuck in the tree and the fire department came and I was young and I said, I want to do that for people.
I mean, I think we forget that everyone is here to do something really special and specific for their soul. And it doesn't mean you're going to always be famous or have this recognition. That doesn't even matter. That's the icing on the cake. The cake is always serving, always showing up. And, you know, I've gone through such a journey in the last two and a half years I should say, losing my parents in very different ways. And I've just learned so much with the caregivers and the doctors and the nurses and I started Focusing on people more and really paying attention to how they're showing up in the world and what they're doing for other people and how we all ultimately do need each other. We need each other because everyone has an anointing and then that anointing serves everybody else.
ELISE: Beautiful. As someone who sits sort of in this Venn diagram between so many different worlds, political, entertainment, all sorts of worlds. You're sort of in the center and you think about this moment in time and even this idea of service and how desperately we need each other and we're all more driven apart than ever. What kind of leaders do you think that we need? Whether it's specific people or it's sort of a skill set, what are you looking for? What will help us?
NICOLE: I think that we need, always we need people who lead with truth, for sure, as much as possible. I understand that leaders can't say everything, but you have to have a plan and you have not only a plan and truth, but leaders are there to serve and leaders are there to lead. So you have a flock and your job is to take care of everyone. You need to make them feel safe. You need to make sure they have a plan. What is the plan? What is the game plan? How are we getting to where we're going? And also there are many people in your, you know, I'm just using flock for lack of a better word. There's so many people, let's just use the United States. People have different ideas. Different agendas and different beliefs, let me start with that. But everyone's still important. Everyone really is still important. So, you know, for example, my job as ambassador was not okay, only take care of the people, you know, you're responsible for every American that is in the Bahamas period. There's 700 islands in the Bahamas. I mean, granted, 30 are inhabited, but it's a lot of space. It's the size of California. So my job was You're in charge, no matter what, of all Americans. You have to keep them safe. You have to make sure that this, this, is this.
I didn't care if they were Democrat or independent or Republican or male or female or gay or straight or anywhere in between, but my job was to make sure that they feel felt safe. My job was to make sure that they felt heard. My job was to fulfill their needs as much as I could, and I think what we're lacking now, and what everyone is desperate for is who's flying the fucking plane, and can we land this plane here? We're listening to everybody, but it's out of control to the point where If you lose common ground just because you disagree with somebody that you can no longer have a conversation, or will at least be decent enough to listen fully to the other person, then we have a problem. I can find common ground, or at least I try to, with almost anyone. And if I can't, I can't, but I always try to go in trying and I think that it's so sad. I'm sure you feel this too, obviously, of the idea that we can't even agree on what a terrorist group is.
ELISE: Right.
NICOLE: That is a problem. I think that's a problem of the family. I think it's a problem. I think everyone's looking for government, but I think you have to start that in your home. I mean, when I was growing up, whatever, whomever a terrorist group was, if it's the Ku Klux Klan or Hamas or a terrorist group is a terrorist group is a terrorist group, period. There's nothing good about it, ever. And I think that when people forget that and don't want to talk about it, It puts us in a very dangerous place. I think that if people think, well, if this person looks like me, they are for me, that's not always true either. What are you talking about? That's not true. And so I hope that we will end up with leaders coming up in America that require us to, to be strong and focused and really get back to being American, which is driven and focused and kind and generous. I mean, yeah, we have a lot of problems. Of course. I don't know one country that doesn't, I don't know anywhere on the planet that doesn't, but I will say I do believe in our country and I'm praying that people really step up and really communicate effectively and truthfully, but with grace and with determination as well and with strength. And I think it's a little bit of both from each side. Does that make sense? I think we get a little bit of grace over here and then we get a lot of this over here And I just want somebody to come in and we have to go back to everybody and say, okay, I might disagree with you, but i'm gonna hear you out and I just think that everyone is too fragmented on I believe this, so I'm not going to listen to you. And that part, it just doesn't work. It doesn't work. And I think that there's a new badge of victimhood that I think is just not aligning with who we are as a people, as a country. There's just a new badge of wanting to be offended or wanting to be like really proud of it. But it doesn't get anyone anywhere as it's proven.
ELISE: Yeah. I think it gives people an opportunity to sort of claim moral righteousness, to be offended, and to make other people wrong, which is a terrifying conversation to walk into where the idea is you're guilty, prove to me that you're innocent, versus like, we're probably gonna have some sort of Venn or overlap of beliefs. I also feel like this, I don't know if you've experienced this online, but there's this like, if you are not completely aligned with me on every single issue, then I will discount you, you have nothing of value to share. I can't possibly learn anything from you or like anything that you create, unless we are in lockstep and how we see the world. It's very strange because I feel like people are getting locked in and losing the flexibility and the willingness to have their minds change or to acknowledge that maybe There's more information that we all need to know.
NICOLE: I love that you say that and, you know, losing the flexibility is a perfect way to say it. I think we've all become so self righteous. I think self righteous is the problem. When you become so self righteous that you're looking for a hundred in every single human being. First of all, try to find that in a marriage. Good luck. I mean, you know, my husband and I don't agree on anything and I love him, you know, and he's my favorite person in the world. And I do not agree with Ted a hundred percent of the time. I think he's batshit crazy sometimes with some of his beliefs. But he can have his beliefs. I have friends from all walks of life beliefs, and I have learned so much. Even if I still come to the conclusion that I disagree, I love listening to everyone's thought process and I will usually, not all the time, but usually take something out of it where I'll say, Hmm, I didn't think about it that way. I still disagree with you, but I actually respect your thought process and I understand why you have that belief. I may still not have that belief. But I respect yours to the point where I'm not going to try to destroy you as a human, unless that belief of course is for the destruction of any type of people. That's one thing, but I'm talking about just basic, you know, growing up in the record business, I was just telling someone the other day, the greatest part was that every single person, especially we go into studios and the engineers, mostly conservative, working with the most liberal lefty singers. Everyone got along because everyone had an intention. We're going to put this song out. We're going to make people happy. We're going to make people think, and then we're all going to go home and raise our families. But not any of the people that I grew up with said, you know what? I'm a liberal, and so I'm not gonna make that song with this guy who thinks differently than me on this, this, this, and this.
No! Our intention is we're gonna make a great song. We have a job to do, and he's a decent person, or she's a decent person. We might have disagreements on things, but they didn't wake up looking to oppose something. They woke up with a positive intention of, okay, let's go create this song and let's create this album and let's go. And I think now to your point, Is the lack of flexibility to even hear a different opinion and this ownership of self righteousness, you know what, if you don't agree with everything I say, I don't value you as a person. I mean, think about that. Again, all of us have put ourselves on a throne as if we are the creators of everything and we know everything and again, I try not to live my life like that. I'm grateful that my parents had friends of all walks of life and all religions and all races and had disagreements. My mom was liberal and progressive. And she had a friend, her best friend for 55 years, very conservative. They just decided, okay, we won't talk about these things, but I'm not going to let that keep the love and the bond that we have with each other, we're not going to lose that over a belief.
ELISE: Yeah. So interesting, because you obviously are descended from people who are enslaved. Your mom was the victim of a violent gun crime. Like you've lived it. Your father came from abject poverty and abuse. And you write in the book about watching Obama come and see your dad after your mom's death and just watching the two of them, these two men, right, at like an improbable encounter not that long ago. When you think about how we Integrate our various hard, hard histories, and you mentioned sort of the way that everyone comes in now proclaiming a victim status, and there are real victims, obviously not to suggest that that's not true, but what is your best advice? Because I think if any of us look at our family line, we would be appalled and inspired in measure, moments when our people were oppressed and moments when they were oppressive, et cetera, it's hard to acknowledge that, right? What's your best advice for how we move forward?
NICOLE: What's helped me is we have to remember that we're all human beings and human beings, from the beginning of time, and we're all tribal, right? All of us are just naturally, but we have to remember that everything is progress, you hope. And when people say, right now, like, oh, there's been no progress in 60 years, that is very, very offensive and it's very ignorant, because it's a such a slap in the face to someone like my father, when he was hearing that before he passed away, he was just blown away by the ignorance of How can anyone say there's been no progress? I am the proof of the progress and I was physically hurt and emotionally hurt during trying to get you progress, trying to get you what I didn't have. And so no, you didn't have, you didn't have to sit in at a counter. You weren't born into Jim Crow law. You weren't told no all the time. So I think my advice for people is to really know history, to appreciate all history, everyone's history, study different cultures, understand Everybody's trials and tribulations and Eastern Europe, you know, it's difficult. I remember my mom sent me to the Soviet Union in 1985. I went with my Russian studies class. It was a great trip. But it was communism. It was something that I'd never seen before I read about what it was like not being free and people not being able to do what they wanted to do when they wanted to do it, how they wanted to do it. But when you see it, It's the acknowledgement of, wow, okay, I think it's very important for us to appreciate history, respect history. Anyone can look back at their ancestors. I don't care what race you are. You could look back at an ancestor, you could look back in your lineage and you're going to see difficulty and you're going to see hardships and you're going to see lots of pain that people decided to overcome. And I think that that's worked for me when I read Frederick Douglass or when I read Ida B. Wells or when I read any speech about, you know, or anything about that time, or even James Baldwin, you read about people's pain and suffering and yet they still are hopeful and optimistic for the next generation. And they still are trying to plant good seeds for the next generation, even though they're not going to see the harvest. I think it's profound.
I think it is All the women that made sure that you and I could vote and that are sitting here having a conversation and that you have this beautiful platform. All of these blessings that we have are really gifts from people that got no credit. That never got a thank you. That never felt appreciated and went to bed tired every single night. But their intention was right. Their intention was like a light worker intention, which is we're going to just keep doing the next right thing until it happens. And we may not see the harvest, like I said, that we want, but the next generation is worth it. And I think it's a proof to life. So for me, I think that's the best advice I can give is appreciate human history. All of it. Appreciate women's history. We all talk about, you know, slavery was everywhere. The reason we talk about slavery in America is because black people were physically slaves here, but it doesn't mean that it didn't happen anywhere else in the world. It didn't mean that there weren't slaves in Eastern Europe or Europe or Africa. There's been slaves from the beginning of time. It was wrong at any time. It's wrong for anybody. We all are fighting human trafficking right now. We're fighting against children being enslaved right now and trafficked right now in 2024. It doesn't matter what country they're in. Right is right and wrong is wrong. I mean, is it perfect around the world? No, but the good news is, is that at least we have people who wake up every day to be focused on what is right and to help people that are not experiencing their God given freedom. So I really think it all goes back to appreciation and knowing where you come from and knowing what other people, doesn't matter what color they are, study and say, thank you
ELISE: it's so true. I don't remember the exact percentage, but David Graeber and David David Wengro in their book about sort of the creation of culture, it's like a kind of high percentage of Indigenous people in North America enslaved other tribes. One in three people in ancient Greece were slaves. Enslaved Jews built the Coliseum in Rome. As you said, like this is part of our history but yes, we know more and we do better now.
NICOLE: That's all you could do as a human. Know as much as you can, know more, do better. And I think that, what's really important, I think that when I say right is right, wrong is wrong, I keep going back to that because I see a sense of now, which scares me, of It's only wrong if the person looks like me. So for example, if something happens to me and it's terrible and I have a group of people that say, Oh, that's terrible that that happened to Nicole, but if the same thing happens to you and they look at you as a Caucasian woman, And they don't say, well, that's terrible what happened to Elise. And that's what I mean about there's a disconnect with you with humanity. There's been a disconnect. If it's whatever happens, that's wrong for me. It's wrong for you. If it's right for you, it should be right for me. When we can't do that anymore and when we only care about, well, if it happens to an Asian person on a subway and you know, it doesn't happen to a black person, I'm just not going to be interested. No, no, everyone should be able to say, my God, that's a horrible thing that happened. It should not matter because it happened to another human being.
ELISE: When, spiritually, when you sort of look at where we are at this moment of time, because it feels like the world is speeding up, it feels quite chaotic and scary, What do you think is afoot?
NICOLE: do believe that everyone forgets that there is a creator that there is some divine force. Again, I respect people if you don't believe, I'm not judging anybody, but I do think that when you don't have a value system and you don't have morals and you don't have a moral compass and you just really believe like I could do whatever I want and I'm not going to be aligned with any force that's good, it becomes chaotic. And I think that a lot of parents have just taken it out of the home where you don't have to be religious. I'm not talking about religion. I am talking about even just basic morals and values in decency. I really do believe everything comes from the home. And I think that everybody is pointing at the government and blaming the government, regardless of whatever rules or laws that we make or change or undo, what have you. I mean, I grew up saying the pledge of allegiance, didn't affect me negatively at all. I have friends who say, I don't let my daughter, and they're super liberal, I don't let my daughter say the Pledge of Allegiance. Really? All of us did it and none of us, I didn't end up hating anybody. The whole purpose of it is to align, to be in alignment with each other. So I think that when you start to take things like that away or when we just don't focus on being forces of good. And aligning with good values and good morals, it's going to get chaotic.
ELISE: So do you think we're learning some sort of big spiritual lesson right now? Or is this like the ultimate test of whether we can pull it together in this pattern?
NICOLE: I think both. I think that we are learning a big lesson and I do think we are going to get out of it because I do think that more and more people are realizing now that this is really just not working and everyone can kind of go back and see where the disconnect is. So social media, look, I've used social media only for positive things, you know, so I follow anything that says good news, good doggy, this good, whatever, anything. And so for me, when I spend an hour on social media, I'm actually learning things. I'm learning. I connect to podcasts where I can change my mindset, where I can change my energy, where I could learn how to redirect my subconscious mind. So it depends on what you use it for, like everything else. Like I always say, you could light a match to light a candle, or you could light a match to burn a house down. I mean, it's always the intention behind what you're doing. And I think it goes back to the adults in the house having conversations and taking control back of what your child is going to learn and listen to and pay attention to versus, I don't know, I'm going to let them do what they want and no our job is to really fill their minds and their hearts with values and with morals and to say, it's, I mean, I say in the book, I remember my parents were like, if I find out that you are bullying people on purpose, It's a wrap.
I didn't even know what it's a wrap meant. My mom would say it's over. It's going to be over. And I would think what over? I'm not bullying anybody. But her point to me was you're going to make a lot of mistakes in life. But I am not going to get the phone call that you are waking up and you are going to school and you are hurting somebody on purpose. Yes, you're going to hurt people in your life. But my God, if I start you young, where it's okay to hurt someone on purpose, then there's a problem. So I think that when we see this escalation of bullying, it says a lot about what conversations aren't happening in the home...
ELISE: yeah.
NICOLE: necessarily mean, oh, that they're going through something at the home. No, it could be that they're just not really being told that these are not our values. You don't get to get up and do that. You don't have to get along with everybody, but you definitely don't get to hurt someone and disrespect someone's soul because you feel like it, because it makes you feel powerful. No.
ELISE: Yeah. You tell a story In the book, I think you were driving with your kids and they were complaining and you talk and you said, Why do you think the rear view mirror is so small?
NICOLE: Yeah.
ELISE: Such a good, it's such a beautiful metaphor, but can you explain why you think it's so small?
NICOLE: because I really think that the past, we can go back to it and we definitely learn lessons because I'm always a hindsight person. So in hindsight, I'm always thinking that, okay, what could I have done better? But the past experiences for me, I've learned as I've gotten older, is to grab the lesson. And hopefully there's a blessing in there too. And then move on. I used to stay stuck in the past and try to understand why, why, why, why, why I would spend so much time, Elise, that I'm never getting back or why did this person do that? Why did this happen? Why did they treat me this way? And really try to unpack all of their baggage. And what I've learned is the why doesn't even really matter. It's, you know, what is the lesson for me? What is the lesson for my soul that I need right now? So a big lesson for me, for example, was wasn't, why am I attracting these people into my life? Let's say like, I was dating and I was on this dating spree in my twenties. It was like, why am I attracting these people who are so disrespectful? But then I changed the question and the question became, why am I attracted to people who are being so disrespectful? And it became, Oh, because I think I can fix them and change them and this and that. So as I got older and I try to teach Tony and Sarah, the rear view mirror is to get the blessing, get the lesson, and hopefully your soul will grow, get the lesson, because there's going to be a new test, right? The tests don't stop. But the windshield is so huge. And it's for what am I creating in the present that I want to see on this screen in front of me that's so much bigger and I can put anything on that screen that I want, but if I keep looking backwards, right, if I keep looking in the rearview mirror, I can't go forward because I'm going to crash into everything because I'm looking like this. So I try to teach Tony and Sarah that because it was a huge lesson for me. I cannot tell you how much time I spent in the past and got stuck in the past versus finding tools to really help me let go of past situations and to get the lesson, like I said, get the blessing and move the F on to the next one.
ELISE: It's essential advice I know for all of us and for all of us collectively, like what practically, what do we need to do to do something different and how can we sort of start where we are rather than trying to resolve things that we wish had been different, but are fast receding on that road? Oh, it's a powerful metaphor.
NICOLE: Yeah, it's it helped me a lot when I learned it. And, you know, I think it's hard. I mean, I like what you said of just starting where we are and doing the next right thing. That's why I always tell people like, where do I start? I'm like, just do the next right thing that you know today and being willing to start again. I've had so many times where I'm hysterically crying and I just, I offer it up to God in the heavens like, okay, I'm willing to start over. I am willing to learn what I need to learn and I'm willing to move forward and I need some help here, but I'm willing to do the work on myself and my soul. And I think the willingness is the part where it's not about being perfect. It's just being willing to show up and pivot. We have to learn to pivot. Like, we have to
ELISE: I know we're almost out of time, but before we go, what, where do you feel drawn? Where is your energy going? What's exciting to you? Where do you feel called to both lead and serve?
NICOLE: Right now in my life, I love storytelling. I love film. I love documentaries. I love creating stories and making stories and then watching them go out, you know, whether it's in TV or film, mostly film, and I'm working on something now. And it's in post and I'm so excited about it. It's a true story on the six triple eight battalion, all female, all black battalion in world war two, they helped us win this war and they boosted morale, they did everything that they were supposed to do at a time when their country didn't even honor them as people, as women, as black people, nothing. But what I love about the story is that they still love being American and they were committed to being American and they were committed to fighting a war and fighting Hitler and winning. And again, planting those good seeds. And then they didn't get recognition until now. They didn't really get a lot of praise. And so for me, I love telling stories of the unsung hero, of the underdog that really never got any credit or that can teach us things about ourselves. So that's where I see my energy going now, is into storytelling, because I think for me, at least the best way for me to say thank you to the people who came before me is to tell their stories and share their stories as much as I can if people don't know them. And it's a huge like, here you go. Thank you very much. I'm sorry. You didn't get the recognition while you were here, but I can do this now in my lifetime and, you know, and that makes me really, really happy. And it makes me very fulfilled.
ELISE: Beautiful. I love that. And as someone who sees the world similarly spiritually, I'm sure it's appreciated too. Well, thank you. Thank you for your book. When is your movie out?
NICOLE: It will be out this year towards the end of the year. So hopefully November or December we're working on a date, but I'm really excited. I promise you it's going to be so good. My prayer is that it comes out around Christmas. That's my prayer, but we'll see.
ELISE: seems like the right time.
NICOLE: Yes.
ELISE: Yeah. Well, thank you. And hopefully I'll see you soon.
