Jennifer Freed, PhD: A Map to Your Soul
Jennifer Freed is a psychologist, astrologer, and the author of many books, including the just-released A Map To Your Soul: Using the Astrology of Fire, Earth, Air, and Water to Live Deeply and Fully. I met Jennifer almost a decade ago—she was, in many ways, the gateway to discovering my own spirituality, because when she did my natal chart, I felt deeply seen and held. It seemed like a small miracle. Jennifer is also a psychologist and so her perceptions are grounded in life: They are insightful, practical, and actionable while also being profound and deep.This is a hard path to walk. Jennifer brings this same quality to her books—you need only have the most rudimentary understanding of astrology to get a lot out of their pages. They are, in many ways, a workout for your soul, and an opportunity to get to know yourself better. And if you do it with or for people you love, you’ll also get insight into why they do what they do. As she explains, astrology is often confined to our star signs and newspaper tidbits, when it’s so much vaster. In today’s conversation we discuss our moon, our rising, and the elements in our chart, which signify how we respond to our life. If you want, head to astro.com and get a free natal chart so you can understand the presence of air, water, fire, and earth in your own chart—though it’s not necessary. I loved our conversation.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:
We are all known by the planets…12:00
Talking about the elements…21:45
Don’t spare the necessary pain…30:00
The corporatization of spirituality…42:00
Sign round-up…50:00
MORE FROM JENNIFER FREED:
A Map to Your Soul: Using the Astrology of Fire, Earth, Air, and Water to Live Deeply and Fully
Use Your Planets Wisely: Master Your Ultimate Cosmic Potential with Psychological Astrology
Check out Jennifer Freed's Website
Follow her on Instagram and Twitter
TRANSCRIPT:
(Edited slightly for clarity.)
ELISE LOEHNEN:
I can't speak to you in this way without doing my veneration as one of the primary mentors of my life. So people who are listening should know that we've met, I don't know, eight years ago, maybe, maybe longer. And you were really the first I know, people think of me as probably like a spiritually out-there person. But it was not always this way.
JENNIFER FREED, PHD:
I was a gateway drug.
ELISE:
You were you're a gateway drug. Lauren Roxburgh had told me about you many times because you met Lauren when she was at UC Santa Barbara. Right?
JENNIFER:
I've known her for years and years since she was a young fondling. Who's become a gigantic Amazon now.
ELISE:
She is. And so she, in a very Lauren way, given me your information, and pressed me very lightly a couple of times. And then finally I emailed you and I went up, you had an office at that point in Santa Barbara and I made it a day trip and had my chart done. And it's interesting to think about myself now. Like I had never, explored that I never like was even interested… living in New York City and sort of like the hand, the psychic storefront, or the Tarot, or the Palm reading. Like it had never sparked any interest for me. I occasionally read horoscopes in the newspaper, but you did my chart, my natal chart. And it was, it threw me not because of any intense revelation, but because, and you're a psychologist. So it's a deeply therapeutic experience to do a reading with you. But like, you knew me, it was wild. It was the first time I'd ever had that experience of not explaining myself. You knew more about me than I knew about myself.
JENNIFER:
Well, I got into this whole field when I was 20, because I had that same type of reading from someone that knew me better than myself. And I went, wow, I'm gonna learn how to do this because what a gift to reveal and mirror to somebody their highest good and who they can be and what I call your divine possibilities. And so this work is an honor for me every day.
ELISE:
I remember you saying that to me, which I thought was so beautiful. You said, and you can say it better. I'm sure. But you said you're this chart, is it identifies sort of where you've been, and what's possible for you, your highest possibility. It doesn't mean you'll achieve all of this or that it will all come to pass, but this is what's potential or what's available to you in this lifetime, which I loved.
JENNIFER:
Yeah. And I would say you're actualizing on a very high level.
ELISE:
Oh, thank you. Well, partly I think because you laid it out for me in a way that really resonates with that Virgo part of my chart.
JENNIFER:
Yes. And I met you as an editor and with all the Virgo rising in Virgo, you have such a gift with words, and I'm so excited about your forthcoming book because the world needs a great wordsmith that has so much soul. And that's how I see you.
ELISE:
Well, what's interesting. And going to your like earth element. So I am so, so people know I'm Sagittarius Sun, Pisces Moon and Virgo Rising. And we can talk, maybe we can talk a little bit about what those mean, because I had no idea that there were other aspects of a chart besides the sign that we all know based on our birthday. But I have no air, right?
JENNIFER:
Well, it doesn't mean you have no air. It means that it’s not a strong element in your natal chart. And so that means you have to hunt for it, work for it. And air is about objectivity and expansiveness and getting to know you over time. Because I have a lot of air you really are in the nitty gritty. I mean, it's not like you don't see the master plan or whatever in things, but you really drill in. You're very specific. You're extremely scholarly and air people can be really shallow and they can be very, dilettantish, and they can be in the big picture, but not the small. So you can learn a little bit about that. Get a little more shallow, Elise!
ELISE:
Get more shallow, I'm into it. All right. So will you, let's start, will you take people through sun, moon, rising and obviously like to really understand astrology requires years of work, but sort of give us the glancing understanding, and maybe we can break it down a little bit, and then let's do the elements.
JENNIFER:
Yes. And we'll use you as an example because I think people love to get to know their people better. And you're somebody that we can appreciate how the elements and the sun, moon, and rising work together. So the sun is your basic identity, how you identify and the battery of your chart. So that's what typically people know, is their sunshine. And that does give you a sense of when you're lit up, what are you, what energy are you? And you are Sagittarius, the philosopher, the adventurer, the horseback rider. Sagittarius is the centaur, but it's also about enthusiasm and optimism, and it's a fire sign. So that is a type of energy when it's Sagittarius, that's like the horse charging ahead. So that's your sun sign, but then your moon sign, couldn't be more different. And everybody's moon sign is so important to understanding themselves and we've given way too much to the solar sun instead of the lunar moon.
The moon is your interiority. It's your inside self and what you need in order to be emotionally fulfilled, and moon in Pisces is you need spiritual, sensitive, caring, empathy. And Pisces is a water sign. And so how you would most feel fulfilled is through this sensitive feeling and be met by somebody on a very calm and sweet and empathetic level. Now your rising sign, which is the role you were given in the family, and then also how you appear to others when they first encounter you is Virgo, and Virgo is about service and perfectionism. So the role you were given in your family, if I were to give it a global moniker is the good girl, get it right. Be perfect and do the right thing, Elise. So you have a good balance of fire as your sun sign, Sagittarius; moon, and water Pisces, and then Virgo rising. So the artistry of a life, and I was thinking about this yesterday, that every single life is a work of art. We're engaging in the world and we're creating something through our own passionate reflection and impact. And for you, Sag, Pisces, Virgo the ultimate impact for you is a wise philosopher who leads with empathy and is very particular and specific about how it's communicated. And that's why I think you're doing a good job.
ELISE:
This sounds very familiar.
JENNIFER:
There's always the shadows here. Here's the bottom line. I can make a lot of fun of myself because I know my shadow side so well, but for you like, you know, I have a lot of Sagittarius, too. Sagittarius can be speak first, think later, like blunt, blunt and forthright, but in a way, not very considerate of others. Pisces moon is the ultimate, if you go there, I'm not saying you do, victim, poor me, why me? And Virgo rising can be the critic and the judge. So you can see. And what I always like to say to people is we have a choice in terms of what octave we're playing these energies. And we all get thrown into the saboteurs. All of us. It's just how quickly you can identify that and choose again. So if you're at a victim mode, which Pisces moon is so good at it, like, oh, why didn't they call me? Or why did he talk to me that way? Or you know, the big why me, you could go, oh, I know that victim saboteur. I love you, but you're not in charge right now because I'm actually a kick-ass, very assertive person. And if something's bothering me, I'll get my needs met. You know, you just shift.
ELISE:
Yeah, I love that. And I love in your last book, not this book, but Use Your Planets Wisely, how you present that higher self or when we're expressing at the level that's possible versus in sort of our lower self, shadow, more shadowy version of that. And it's interesting, I'm sure that there are other people without those three signs, but when you go through this book, which is divided into the 12 houses and people don't need to be astrology junkies or experts in order to use the book. But if you get your natal chart from Astro.com, you can see where all of your planets are, and work more deeply in the book, which is wonderful. But what I love about just a general statement on astrology is it speaks to that sort of this idea that we're all held, right? We're all held in this map, we're all mapable, we're all known in some way by the planets. Although I know some people don't know exactly when they were born, but that each… sure there's someone who might have essentially an almost identical chart if they were born sort of in that time, same band, but for the most part, it expresses the micro to the macro, like the cosmic possibilities of all of us and then our unique birthright and how we need to express. It's such a beautiful system in that way.
JENNIFER:
Well, I think of it like the metaphor of the ensemble in a great musical, like everybody has to know their part. Everybody has to give 2000% and everybody has to really cheer on the other people doing their part or just doesn't work. And the way I see the map to our soul, this astrological map is we have free will. So we get to play it at whatever level we choose, and certainly cultural influences, and patriarchy, and all kinds of stuff messes us up. But I firmly believe, and I've seen it over and over that if we get the help we need to uncover our fullest expression, people are humming at their fullest best part, which then allows everyone else around them to rise up.
ELISE:
How many…and your specific type, you’re a psychologist and an astrologist. You talk about psychological astrology, how rare of a combination is that? And is there a lot of grace that people find and somehow being like, oh, this intransigent personality trait or this thing that always gets me into trouble is actually maybe the way that I'm structured and I can learn how to navigate in different ways. Like talk to us about that as a healing art.
JENNIFER:
Well, okay. So I'm 40 years in, seeing thousands of people. So I have a lot of empirical evidence for what this can do for people. And I think a great astrological understanding does three things. It gives you a sense of purpose. Like you're here for a purpose, not one, but two or three. It gives permission for people to understand those recurring patterns and that they were there from birth. And it really wasn't their mother or father it's their cosmic DNA. And third, it allowed me to just feel so much compassion for other people. Because before I had this map, I was judging people and I was saying, why can't they be more like this? And why aren't they more like that? And you know, the mind does that. That's what we do. But once I started understanding people's astrology charts, it would be, oh, oh, I get it. You know, it just gives you such an appreciation for what we're up against and also what our talents are.
ELISE:
Do you think that we're born? I mean, you said this to me. I remember when I was waiting for my second child to be born and was like, what do you think about this day or that day? And you were like,every child chooses, even if they're induced, like it is what it's supposed to be. Do you think we pick our charts, like to that level of, in terms of what we maybe need to learn? Like what's your bigger construct?
JENNIFER:
That we each come in to do one and only one thing, learn and evolve, and we might do it a 5,000 times. You know, some of us are hard learners. I'm a pretty stubborn person. I have to repeat lessons over and over again. And then I'm just amazed. Wait a second, I thought I did that five years ago. But I think that it's an ego perspective to think, oh, we sat there and picked out our charts. I think it's more like synchronicity. We are, and this is our possibility, as opposed to control.
ELISE:
Okay. I get that. I appreciate that. Are there charts that are better than others? Is there any sort of combination where you're like, oh, tough, tough draw.
JENNIFER:
Absolutely. And that's part of this big compassion. I have three friends with what's called a grand square and that's a technical term astrologers will understand, but it basically means there's a very deep place in their psyche they never get to rest. When they go to rest, they have to attend to this or attend to that. It's like a ricochet machine that never stops bouncing. And so my teacher was very helpful back in my twenties, her name, Lynne Stark. And she had her PhD in the history of science, and was an astrologer, so she was pretty serious. But her perspective is the harder the chart, the more work you can get done in a lifetime. So bravo, you know? I don't feel sorry for people when I see those really hard charts, I don't, I think, wow, that soul came in to have a big shuttle. And the more work you get done in one lifetime, at least ideally, the freer you become.
ELISE:
And then in terms of charts that are particularly… like, when you look at, if you look at, let's say like a Gloria Steinem or someone who has achieved really incredible things, when you look at her chart I don't know if you've ever done Gloria Steinem’s chart. But when you look at someone like that, are you like, well, of course, or is she someone who would've had a difficult chart?
JENNIFER:
The people that achieved the most, like I'm thinking of Glennon Doyle right now have difficult charts. Because grist for the mill, people that have an easier lifetime, for whatever reason in their chart, don't tend to have to push things up the mountain. They kind of chill. They're like, you know, running a cafe, enjoying some nice social time. You know, it's not like they're up against something and making something of it. Everyone I've ever read for that has achieved. Like, I think my friend Van Jones that has achieved quite a bit in a lifetime, it comes with incredible adversity. It's like the sandpaper that makes the wood so beautifully smooth, but that sandpaper is formative in that person's development.
ELISE:
That makes so much sense. I mean, it's another way to think about it, right? If you go and get your chart done, and it's like, you're met by a, oh, this has been hard. I mean, that has to be incredibly validating too, I think.
JENNIFER:
Well, I had a friend named Henrica, beautiful woman, and she is older now, but she was helping to hide people during the Nazi occupation in Holland when she was a little girl. And I saw her when she was about 50, and she has one of these grand square charts. And I said to her, what a lifetime. You've gone through so much, and it won't get easier, but you will have more grace with understanding how it goes for you. And she started sobbing, just sobbing because one, she felt recognized, I didn't know her whole story. She's written a beautiful book by the way. But she also was sobbing because there's a secret hope when you have a really hard life, that one day it's over, and then you get the rest of the life as easy.
You know, it's like, for me in my chart, I will never not work, now for some people that's really sad. Like, oh my God, when's retirement? And I laugh. Like, what is even retirement? I don't even understand it. But knowing that is in my chart, it's become my quest. And it's happened that my work is so joyful. Why would I give it up?
ELISE:
Right.
JENNIFER:
But I'm not gonna get to sit around in a leisure world and chew gum. It's not gonna happen.
ELISE:
Right. I don't know what my chart says about that, but I feel similarly, like as long as it's service through joy, I can't, I just can't imagine. I'm not very good at rest.
JENNIFER:
No, you're not very good at rest. I'm really, really good at rest. I'm gluttonous and very lazy at times, but coupled with hard work.
ELISE:
Right, right. So you talked a little bit about those elements, which I feel like, I mean, obviously we're aware of them collectively, but aren't really conscious of how they show up in our lives, or that the ideal to be somewhat balanced. And I know probably very few people are perfectly balanced between all four. So as I said, I don't have air, but can you talk about sort of drill into the values of each of those?
JENNIFER:
I want to, because I also wanna say the biggest problems I see people get into is projecting the negative side of the element they're less developed in. So we can, as an example, but let's break out the four elements first and again, in my book, A Map To Your Soul, you don't have to know astrology to get very interested in the elements in these 12 domains of life. And that's how I wrote the book. Because I wanted people to do the personal work without having to have the mindset of astrology, just elements. So let's talk about it. The fire is the dynamic, the bold, the pioneering, the innovative; the other side of it as reckless, the impulsive, the ego-maniacal. But the fire think of the element of fire and it's just activating and alluring and charismatic and mesmerizing.
ELISE
And creative, right? Like you blaze trails for new things.
JENNIFER:
Totally, because fire it's just, and then fire, from the volcano, volcanic fire, we get earth. Earth is grounded, and stable, and reliable, and dependable, and can be quite stodgy, and stuck, and stubborn, and unyielding. Then from earth, we go to air and air is vast, and expansive, and logical, and objective, and mental. And on the other side, fickle, gossipy, shallow, vain, and unreliable, very scattered. And then we go to water, and that's feeling, that's sensitivity, and empathy, and caring, and nurturing. And on the other side, clingy, whiny, baby-ish, and like that. So all of us have all four elements, but we are preferencing one or two. Like my preferencing is fire and air. So I'm very dynamic and bold in all of that. And then very objective and vast and all of that. But, oh my God, if Rendy has to remind me for the 20,000 time, when you shut the drawer, didn't you not notice you put the sock on the plate. I mean, where's the earth, right? That's our dynamic. She just can't even believe my head's so in the air sometimes. And sometimes I do the dishes, and I'm really happy to do them. And then later I see her doing the dishes, like what the F why are you doing the dishes? She goes, you couldn't even get the stuff off the dishes. I don't know what you were doing. It’s like that.
ELISE:
Sounds like my relationship.
JENNIFER:
Well, we, we are very drawn to the other, right? It doesn't matter, same sex, or other sex, people don't get together that are exactly alike, because there's nothing to learn.
ELISE:
That's interesting because my husband and I are both Sags, and yet we could not be more different.
JENNIFER:
Well, because the sunshine is one bit of the whole picture, and I know Rob, and when you look at the whole picture, there's so many different nuances in a chart. So you, on the other hand are lighter in air. So until you get more interested in being a little bit more shallow and vain and undependable and all of that. Vanity is not your thing, but you could learn it. You might attract the shadow side of air people in your life. People that seem really self pre-occupied, and really into their beauty, and kind of shallow and very flighty and airheads.
ELISE:
Interesting. And I'm doing that as like a tool, or because I'm attracted to that quality that I don't have, or…
JENNIFER:
Well, I believe that the entire project of being human is becoming whole. So where we don't own the parts of us that are missing, we usually see it in the world in negative ways to bring our attention to it. As we incorporate it more inside ourselves, we're not attracted to that quality in the world outside of yourself because we've really inherently developed it inside. So for example, the best thing in the world for me to do is earth stuff. So when yesterday I spent hours cleaning out my drawers—now to get to that is monumental for me, because I think there's a thousand better things to do, but doing that very menial task, it's repetitive and routine, very earth. I felt fabulous afterwards. So it's what Jung calls your inferior function. If you go to the thing you're least likely to be drawn to, it actually helps balance out the whole.
ELISE:
Mmm interesting. So this might be a misunderstanding, but when I think about the vastness of air, and I know I'm supposed to meditate, and yet at the same time, I have an aversion to it, which I don't think is laziness. Would one thing be for me to connect with that vastness, or really feel myself in an expanded state by forcing myself to meditate?
JENNIFER:
To train your mind. Yes. Because there is a trained mind at its best. It's like a rigorous trained mind. The other thing that I know you're drawn to, but is absolutely spot on for you developing a positive air inside of you is breathwork. Not, not wait. I wanna say this because I've done all kinds of breathwork. Not the rebirth breathwork, screaming, breathwork, no, the actual once an hour breathing for five minutes. So again, using that Virgo rising to do something routine that is focused on the lungs and breathing.
ELISE:
Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, for people who are listening I have a hyperventilation disorder and I'm a terrible breather have been throughout my life. So that shows you my deficit!
JENNIFER:
But again, you know, it's so sweet because I find it hysterical because I look at Instagram like we all do, and people that are professing, like you can have every day be perfect, and joyful, and nothing's wrong, and I think they’re biggest liars on the planet. To be human is to suffer, and to learn, and to have joy, and we wanna minimize the suffering. But I think that's part of the ride is we have, we have our little difficulties or big difficulties and then it's about how do we meet them? How do we meet them anew like that?
ELISE:
No, I agree with that. I think obviously there's no avoiding suffering and that that's how we learn, and what I think is really nice about the book is that you as a psychologist come through and again. Like, as we've mentioned, you don't need to be bought into astrology to get a lot out of it, but a big part of it, or one of the thrulines seems to be how you engage with other people where you're not obviating their suffering or trying to solve their problems. But that you are recognizing that instinct in yourself of like letting other people suffer and yet staying with them. I mean, I know that was a big part of third house, right? Thought and communication.
JENNIFER:
Yes. Yes. And I wanna say something that somebody said to me years ago, I forget who, but it's helped me a lot. And then of course I forget and screw up. Don't spare anyone necessary pain.This is profound for me because I'm a big rescuer by my nature. And it's never worked out, not once, not ever that momentary heroic feeling of I'll save the day. It's just never worked out. And what's true is if I look at you and think, wow, you've broken your neck and it's really sucky and I'll do anything for you cuz I love you, but there's a big lesson in that for you, and you're gonna be great with it. And I believe that you'll come through that with a stronger neck chakra and throat chakra and all the things you need. I think we do a much better job when we trust that people have a path that's unique to them that they are fully able to manifest and transform at their will and timing.
ELISE:
No, I'm sure. Oh we haven't probed the lessons. I mean, I feel like I'm extracting the lessons from having a broken neck. And I think it's funny and ironic and obviously it's not funny. There's nothing funny about it, but that it's my throat chakra and my neck is always out historically, and we’ll see how I emerge from the other side of this. But I also wonder if this has realigned my neck in some way, and or whether, I don't know, I don't know.
JENNIFER:
I'm looking at you, and I read energy also, and your neck area is much more tender than it's ever been before. And as your friend, my intuition says to me right now, you need to receive a lot more tenderness in your life, that you've put up with a lot of people treating you less tenderly than you deserve. And that part of that opening throat chakra is what's coming to me as the color rose, and this beautiful love that you have, and that you give, but really needs to be returned. And that you can ask for that or stand for that, not with a harshness or demand, but like actually I'm a very tender human being, no matter how tough I look, that's what I'm getting about this neck breaking open thing.
ELISE:
That makes me wanna cry. I feel like you're probably actually dead on. And it's been really, it won't surprise you, but it's been very hard even to sort of, and I'm halfway through my neck break recovery, and I'm sort of trying to push myself back into action where I'm like, oh, if you put that up high enough, Rob, then I can do the unpacking, et cetera. And sort of like try…I know, I know, it’s so difficult to let anyone do anything for me, but I need to stay in it.
JENNIFER:
Yes. And the Virgo rising by the way, is learning discernment. The difference between servitude and service.
ELISE:
Hmm. Say more.
JENNIFER:
Okay. This is a huge one for anybody with the Virgo rising, but we start off trading off our self worth for acts of service.
ELISE:
Okay.
JENNIFER:
And we also get ourselves in relationships and arrangements where we're servants, when what ultimately is the Virgo rising is service is a mutual benefit. And it's a very different energy though. I'm not serving you in order to have a transaction in which you approve of me or think I'm good. It becomes, I serve you and you serve me, and I'm equally willing to receive your service. It's not a one way thing.
ELISE:
I know. Why, what is that instinct though, to try and just make that a one way road?
JENNIFER:
Well, again, Virgo rising. I have a little bit with my moon in the sixth house of Virgo. My mother was very transactional. You know, I got goodies if I took out the dog, and did the chore, and did the thing, and like I got the pats on the backs, the kind of gaze I wanted to get. So I learned early as like a little work mule, do the thing and you'll get the sweetness. You'll get the honey. And that's a Virgo rising too. So you get trained very early: deeds for love, deeds for love. Now you don't need to stay there. I don't need to stay there. So as you grow yourself up, you can say, I don't do deeds for love. I do deeds because I want to do the deed. But the part that was missing for me, and I don't know for you, is I didn't feel like I could just walk home and through the door and have my mother's love. Like I didn't get met with, “Oh honey. You're home. Let's just sit and talk and let me stroke your hair.”
ELISE:
Does anyone?
JENNIFER:
Yes. I mean, let me tell you a little funny story is that my partner, Rendy, is the kindest, most caring person on the planet. And when we were raising her three kids together, she would do that for them. And sometimes I felt this rage and jealousy like, damn it. Nobody did that for me. They'd come home. And honey, how was your day? And let me sit with you and like, wait a second. And I had to really do the inner work of, wow, I didn't get that. I'm so happy they're getting that. And yes, some mothers actually do that. And I, I would say that'd be nice for you to do with your boys.
ELISE:
I feel like I do try and do that. No, certainly we're just like the presence is enough. My kids are much less, at this point, industrious than I feel like I was as a kid. Yeah, no, I definitely, I don't know whether it's just part of who I am, or it was conditioned into me, or exploited by that natural tendency maybe gets exploited or overextended.
JENNIFER:
All of the above.
ELISE:
That's been one of the hardest, I think it's true for a lot of people, but for me it's been sort of this feeling of conditional love attached to doing, and the unavailability of be just being. And then I think it, as we get older and certainly in this culture that we're living in now, that's all about validation. It's hard. It continues to be hard to divorce myself from, oh, I just need to go and do all of this stuff so I can be validated as providing value for people, even though like you, like, I love what I do. I would do it in a closet. You know, I know no other way of being, but it's hard when you get trapped.
JENNIFER:
It's a thin line. Because I notice for myself, there's a bit of a transitional period when I take myself off the work, to just be. I can feel the discomfort because I was trained into the doing, and I like to just be, but sometimes there's this awkward, and I just tell myself, it's just gonna be a few minutes. Like if I wanna take a nap, the first four minutes are excruciating because I'm still, you should be doing something, and maybe somebody needs something. And then if I just open my heart and say, I'm worthy of receiving, and stick with it, then this incredible other energy opens up that's just delight and softness and beingness. But I think because I was raised this way, and it's in my chart, and it's in your chart, we also carry within us a little taskmaster that we have to deal with now that it's not about our parents. And just go, Hey, I deserve a break, and it's okay to just be, and my favorite way to just be is just cuddle my cats, because there's just nothing to do, but be silly and warm.
ELISE:
Well I feel like you're a playful spirit and I like, and I don't know if that's just your abundance of fire and air, but like I never feel like I learned how to play. Like that seems to be missing. I don't know if that's an astrological thing.
JENNIFER:
It is, it is a little bit harder in your chart. That's one of those things that would be hard for you to come by. But you have one of the best laughs of anyone. So I think you do know how to play, but it isn't the way other children play. It's more in your mind. It's more in conversation. Certainly writing forces is a big way you play. So I think your play is more structured and I'm more silly. You know, we're just different. My chart's more silly, I’m a goofball and you're an eccentric.
ELISE:
Alright, going back to the book. When you talk about the 12 houses. And then you break them up into these sort of the third houses is communication, et cetera. Is that, are those astrological rules or mandates or is that your system for understanding people's charts?
JENNIFER:
That's a great question. So I broke the book up into 12 domains that are based on the astrological houses. Now the 12 astrological houses cover pretty much every area of life. And they have a lot of specificity. I chose to do 12 domains, but only cover basic, core issues in each of those areas. So it's not as comprehensive as the astrological houses, but I hit on kind of the big issues most people wanna talk about. So for example, the first house is about self-image and how you walk in a room. And the second house is about values and money. And the third house is communication. Fourth house is the house you actually live in or the abode. And then what feelings you create in that context. The fifth house is about creativity and falling in love, the sixth house health and habits and so on.
ELISE:
Okay. So it's sort of an essential reduction of these bigger concepts. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, and then, as you work through it and I need to do it really slowly and with pen and paper again, it almost feels more, and I know that you don't necessarily distinguish between the two of them in your practice, but it feels more psychological, or more open to potential rather than this is who you are.
JENNIFER:
Well, I appreciate actually that you keep referencing the psychological part because I think that's uniquely what I offer the field of astrology. You asked me early on how many people really do this, and I'm gonna say to you, not many people, not well. Because I have a PhD in psychology and that is not an easy thing to achieve. And I have 40 years of going to workshops and learning from masters and doing my own therapy. And I think sometimes what's missing now from this burgeoning astrology field is actually the tools—like they might have the map, but they don't have the tools. So then it becomes this smattering of information that's downloaded to people. And I'm saying, now what? And so for me, the book really is, as I am extremely practical, if you wanna grow and learn your lessons this lifetime, I'm gonna give you some tools, and I guarantee you, because I've tried them all out, if you do them, you're gonna actually have a lot of fulfillment.
ELISE:
Why, and I don't wanna make you do a history lesson, and I know I've become more obsessed with these things than you do. But when you think about astrology in the way that it's it's can be deprecated culturally, or all of these thing right.But then as you were pointing out, well, like the three Magi, those guys, they were astrologers, like astrology was the primary, one of the primary sciences throughout a lot of literate human history, what happened or why do you think it's so…
JENNIFER:
It is historically what did happen. It's not gonna be that surprising to you. Astrology was the world meaning-making system for centuries and centuries when, and I'm gonna say it gendered, although now it doesn't have to be men, but when men decided they wanted the power to be within them, they outlawed astrology and the priests and the churches said, you go through me, you don't go direct to the heavens. They wanted the ultimate say. They didn't want people having a direct connection with the divine. They wanted to be the intermediary. And in part, so they'd get the money. I mean, it's very much like corporatization of everything. It was the corporatization of spirituality. So astrology was widely accepted in every culture, and certainly Jesus and all of those guys were into astrology. But what happened is when the men went, Hey, this could be our buildings. We could get the tenants, we could get the customers, like many good corporate heads, they went privatize here. Let's get rid of the people going directly to their own knowing. That’s what happened.
ELISE:
Well, it makes a ton of sense. And, um, this was, I thought a fascinating fact in Leonard Shlain's book, and we talked about this before, but that the reason, or one of the reasons that the fish, that symbol Pisces is associated with Christ and Christianity, you know, and what you will typically find is that it marked when Christians were persecuted as marked safe havens, et cetera, and, or all the fishing and the Bible, but it's actually because the birth of Christ is associated with the age of Pisces.
JENNIFER:
Exactly.
ELISE:
So, yeah, that, that was foretold by astrologers, theoretically, the three Magi, and that he is associated with a new age in the same way that the age of Aquarius begins in like 2160?
JENNIFER:
It’s coming. It's unclear exactly. But basically it's called the procession of the equinoxes. And it means that the earth tilt changes slightly every about 2300 years, and aligns slightly differently. So you're right. The coming of Jesus was the beginning of that 2300 year age called Pisces. And now we're on the precipice of the next 2300 years called Aquarius, but we're some people disagree about the exact year, and I think we're not gonna live that long. I don't think. So I think our job is to end the age of Pisces well.
ELISE:
Yeah. And is this from what you can tell, I mean, this gets into like, we'll go out there into spirituality, we'll push it, but the end of eras and it feels like we're at the end of an era. Do you sort of, when you look at the ancient astrology, is this typically what, like, it feels like structures are falling and failing and we're rebuilding into something different. Is that, do you think that that's part of what we're collectively experiencing? Is it in the stars?
JENNIFER:
Yes it is. And you ask me another time to spell something out that I'll now speak to. We are coming out of about 18 years of Pluto in Capricorn, which is the end of the structures as we've known them, and realizing how dysfunctional they are. Now we're still clinging on with bloody fingers, because look at all this big world mess. But this is the age we're ending in terms of Pluto, as the representative of destruction of old forms. We are entering in 2023 Pluto in Aquarius, a radically different energy. So the institutions that have been crumbling will, in some way, give way to a whole new ethos when Pluto goes into Aquarius. Aquarius is the sign of humanity. It's a sign of technology. It's an air sign, it's the sign of ideas, and it's also radical reinvention. So my particular take on where we're going as we're ending this age, and at least for the next 18 years, is what does it mean to be a community? Seriously.
And my advice to people. And I mean this with my whole heart is get your kinship cruise together because whatever's coming, it's inherent that we're out of our own lonely separatist souls and into community, because community's gonna be where it's at. And that doesn't mean you have to live with the people because we have this worldwide web, but you wanna double down and invest: We are humanity. We're not just human.. So we have to start really embracing that concept. And I imagine there's gonna be all kinds of rebellion against institutions that would have us be separated. So we'll see what happens.
ELISE:
Are you optimistic?
JENNIFER:
Well, it's an interesting thing, having a Sagittarius rising because I'm optimistic in the biggest sense, which is all is well that ends well. It's not over, you know. I'm not optimistic on a very individual personal level as I see people more invested in greed than ever before, in separatism, and you know, war ideologies and buying more guns, and all of that. But I am always up for the big miracle, the unveiled big miracle. I have private hopes about what that could be, but I do think we need something on such a global level of awakening that would just knock people out of their lazy self-involved, and very self-referencing positions. We have to start thinking of ourselves as one we have to.
ELISE:
Yeah. And the assertion of those needs. I mean, in spite of everything that we're seeing, the absurdist quality, the extreme quality of what we're seeing, that effectively, you know, by theoretical leaders, those 13 people, right. That flies in the face of what majority of Americans at least want and believe and the, the way that they're gunning for things that are really? Like now you're gonna go after gay marriage? Like this, isn't an accepted part of our society outside of a few fringe fanatics.
JENNIFER:
My favorite is birth control. I mean, I think like talk about real gutsiness to say, Hey, we've done this. I think next we'll start telling people they can't have birth control. I just think it's the death rattle of patriarchy, of a certain kind of follow me, live by this. you'll be okay certainty. It's certainly not true. But I also think we all have to realize we've had a hand in this by our complicity.
ELISE:
Yeah. And our apathy. No, absolutely. But it feels like they're taking it to the extreme that it feels like a kick turn, like there's no way there's no way back from this. In some ways, weirdly that makes me optimistic. It would feel more insidious and scary if they were subtle breaks, or deprecations of existing freedoms, but instead to be so openly misogynistic. To me, it makes it an undeniable reality for every woman that we are not free and don't have equal rights. And really didn't.
JENNIFER:
Like just think how men are gonna feel if birth control's taken away. I mean, to me, this is an attack on sovereignty itself. It's not just women. It's saying basically, if you don't believe what I believe and do what I say, it's very primitive, very paternalistic. Then you will be punished. It is the ultimate fantasy of the big daddy punishing everyone that doesn't stay in line.
ELISE:
Yeah. It's wild.
JENNIFER:
It is wild. But I like wild because as you said, it's so absurd that, you know, but I'm still thinking, so this is my desire that I'll put out to you and we can hope other people join in. I still see a moment in which people get back out into the streets peacefully. Connection is our protection. We are problematic allies. But I see a moment in which the streets are flooded with people singing and marching peacefully. And just saying, this is our world. Not yours.
ELISE:
Yeah,I love that. To end on astrology and you can tell me if this is crazy, or if we have time, is it possible? Because I know interested people will be like, well, what did she say about my sign? Is it possible to run through the signs quickly and describe how we could do Sun, or how they show up in moon or rising, whatever you think is, or is that too long to go?
JENNIFER:
We'll give it a roll. I mean, let's just what happens. I think what's fascinating about astrology for anyone that does study it. It's so extremely mathematical. It will blow your mind. Every single thing is in order, it's like a cosmic order beyond anything you could consider. So when you start with Aries, it's a fire sign. It’s bold, it's direct, it's leadership, it's audacious, fire. Which then leads you to Taurus, which is a very calm, dependable, earth sign, very steady, very slow. Which then leads you to Gemini, an air sign, which is about communication, and networking, and thoughts, and ideas. Which then turns you into Cancer, which is the crab. And it's a water sign. And it's about nurturing, and mothering, and emotional sensitivity. Which then goes to Leo, back to fire, and fire in Leo is fixed fire. And it's the creative, the loving, the childlike.
And then we go from Leo to Virgo, mutable earth. And in that earth, we're talking about service, and discernment, and perfectionism. And then that mutable earth goes into another air sign, which is Libra, Cardinal air. And that is about the initiation of relationship, and harmony, and diplomacy. And then that goes into fixed water Scorpio, which is about penetrating the emotional depths and the sexual intimacy, which leads us to mutable fire Sagittarius. And that is about education, adventure, travel, and meaning. Then that leads us to Cardinal earth, Capricorn. And that is about climbing the great mountain, stewardship achievement, and also just being a protective, very positive father influence. Then we go to fixed air Aquarius and that air is about humanity, friendship, kinship, and innovation. And finally, mutable water Pisces. That is the divine oneness. It's when we reach the state of absolute connectedness to every single thing through sentience. And also being inspired by the divine spheres. That's our Roundup.
ELISE:
Okay. And so Sun is how you present to the world.
JENNIFER:
Sun is your basic identity, like who you identify with, the battery that lights up your chart. Think of the sun. It's what lights up everything. The Moon is your interiority, your non-negotiable needs. And the Rising is your persona, how you interact with the world, and what your earliest role was in the family. And then that's up to you to evolve it, to be a master influence in your community.
ELISE:
And so it's your, so when people are doing work, is it primarily like they're gonna primarily be working with their rising? Is that the most mutable?
JENNIFER:
Well, in terms of how you interact with other others, that's their first hit of you. So it's really a good idea to keep crafting how you actually interact with people and to evolve that to the highest state of influencing contribution. But actually you work with your whole chart as a life goes on. And every single part of it is what we call your inner committee. And everybody needs a bit of attention in order to develop to their fullest potential inside the committee.
ELISE:
And so when people get A Map to your Soul, and then they can print out a free chart and sort of get the alignment of their planets, not necessary for extracting. I'd say, I'm gonna guess 70% of the value of the book, but if you wanna be masterful and really know where your planets are in these domains, get the chart. And that, that sort of gives people enough groundwork to really start to work with.
JENNIFER:
If they use my other book, Use Your Planets Wisely and they get A Map To Your Soul, I thought of them as two, then you actually have enough tools to do a lifetime of growth and development. And I mean that like you will never be done if you use both those books and do the exercises yourself, or do them with other people close to you. And I do wanna say, since you're gonna have this come out in time for my book, that I will also be doing a mentorship class on the book that people can sign up for, because I thought, I would like to have a group of dedicated people going through the chapters with me.
ELISE:
What does that, how does have you figured out how that's gonna work yet or TBD
JENNIFER:
It's gonna be a Zoom offering and okay. You can find out more about it@jenniferfree.com because it's developing, but it won't start until November.
ELISE:
Exciting.
JENNIFER:
I'm just so thrilled to get to do my service, work on the planet and meet people like you. And it's what we live for. To give our gifts. I really believe that.
ELISE:
Um, no, I agree. I mean, I think I have endless gratitude. I mean, I think this is sort of the beauty of astrology or any, any rhyme or any of these systems is that once you start to understand what is your what your chart reveals about who you are and you lean into that, then you can't imagine also doing anything else. Like do people, I don't have chart envy. I love my chart or I love what's possible for me. Like I don't wanna be a concert pianist.
JENNIFER:
I would say that if people are really interested in growth and they understand there's only one spot to take on this planet and it's your spot for growth, then no, one's complaining about what their chart is. Again, people have free will. So if they think, I should have been given this, and entitlement is an issue, they might feel otherwise. But I know, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm just old enough to see and learn and know that there's only one way in and one way out—the growth path, because it's the only one that mitigates suffering.
ELISE:
Yeah. And if you're not growing, you're dying.
JENNIFER:
Yeah. So get back on the horse.
ELISE:
I am. Shortly.
JENNIFER:
And what's so great about people getting back on the horse is it allows some of us to never get on the horse. And I appreciate you for that.
ELISE:
As mentioned, Jen Freed is one of the wise women in my life who is not afraid to tell me things that I sometimes don’t want to hear. But she is also an exquisite listener. I loved Chapter 3, which is about thought and communication, because in that she gives, again, a lot of the book is psychologist, very wise and salient advice, ironically, about not giving advice. But what it is to really be with and for each other in silence and support. And how we create space for each other to learn lessons, and to not immediately rush to take away people’s pain or suffering, but to simply support them while they experience what it is that they need to experience.
I thought I would just quickly tell you the domains, or houses, that she drills into. First House: Awareness of self, appearance, outward personality. Second House: Values and personal resources, such as money and skills. Third House: Thought & Communication. Fourth House: Home, Parenting, Inner Security. Fifth House: Creativity, Romance, Children, Fun. Sixth House: Work, Health, Self-Improvement, Self-Care, Daily Service. Seventh House: Partnerships, including Marriage. Eighth House: Sex, Death, Other People’s Money, Sharing, Surrender. Ninth House: Philosophy, Higher Education, Publishing, Religion, Long Trips. Tenth House: Career, Status, Reputation. Eleventh House: Groups, Friends, Community Contribution. Twelfth House: Spirituality, Solitude, Institutions, Transcendence. And this allows you to explore all parts of your life in a really easy to use way, insightful framework.