Mark Horn: Why Tarot and Kabbalah Might Belong Together (MYSTICAL SYSTEMS)
This is the third part in our special series on Mystical Systems—last Monday, we heard from Asterian astrologist Jade Luna, and the Monday before we heard from Courtney Smith on the Enneagram. Next week, we’ll learn about Human Design. That voice you just heard is Mark Horn, who jokes that he might be the only person who has taught at both the Jewish Theological Seminary and the Readers Studio International Tarot Conference. Yep, that’s right: Mark Horn is an Kabbalah academic who also reads Tarot—though the most remarkable point about this combination is that the two actually go together, and are indelibly linked throughout time. In Tarot readings with Mark—full disclosure, I’ve had two—you settle on a specific question, and he does your hand through the Sephirot, which is the Kabbalistic symbol for the Tree of Life. These readings are fascinating, not only for their ability to respond to the question, but also because Mark decodes the cards through stories from the Kabbalah, making it an entirely different, wholly mystical experience. Okay, lets get to our conversation.
MORE FROM MARK HORN:
Tarot and the Gates of Light: A Kabbalistic Path to Enlightenment
Mark Horn’s Website
Follow Mark on Instagram
Further Listening on Pulling the Thread:
PART 1, ENNEAGRAM: Courtney Smith “The Practical Magic of the Enneagram”
PART 2, ASTERIAN ASTROLOGY: Jade Luna “The Secret Astrological System”
ASTROLOGY: Jennifer Freed “A Map To Your Soul”
ENNEAGRAM: Susan Olesek “The Power of the Enneagram”
TRANSCRIPT:
(Edited slightly for clarity.)
ELISE LOEHNEN: So, Mark, I know a bit about your story, but can you tell us how you came alternately to both Tarot and Kabbalah and then how the two strategies are related?
MARK HORN: I first discovered tarot when I was 16 years old, back in ancient days. And I was really looking for alternative spiritual experiences. Because as a teenager, I knew I was gay and I didn't find a welcome home in the tradition I was born into, or really any major faith traditions of the time. I went off in search of other things and, you know, I found myself in, in ashrams and in all kinds of places to learn things. But I found one of the things that I loved about tarot was that it really was very self directed. It was, yeah, you could use it for fortune telling, but it was also a spiritual path that helped you explore within. And that felt really comfortable to me. When I first started studying tarot, there was, and I read that there was a Kabbalistic connection, but in all of the books that I read that mentioned it, it was really written in a way that I found to be overly obscure and not very helpful and, and also because Kabbalah was part of the tradition I was running away from since I was brought up Jewish. I just thought, let's leave this out. It's not necessary. You don't have to use this if you don't need or don't want it. And so I put it aside for many years. And then in my early 40s, when I found my way back to Judaism via Buddhism, as a matter of fact, I spent a number of years in Japan and started studying Buddhism with the Vipassana folks while I was there.
And The deeper I got into Buddhism, the more I found that I had something that, you know, the Buddhists say that there is no soul, but the deeper I got in my Buddhist meditation, I felt that at my core, my soul was Jewish and that I needed to go back and do some exploration. And of course, in all of those intervening years it was much more welcoming to queer folk. But very shortly after I found my way back to Judaism, I found myself invited to teach at the Jewish Theological Seminary, of all places which blew my mind but was a great experience because I really threw myself into learning the tradition of my origin. And then I decided, okay, it's time to look in this Kabbalah thing, you know? Particularly because of the tarot connection, and I started studying with academic teachers, with rabbis, with practitioners, and I was really astounded that this didn't have to be complicated or obscure in the way the tarot people wrote about it when I was a kid. And the more I learned about very traditional Kabbalistic practices, I also realized there were some traditional things that you could do from a Jewish point of view with tarot cards.
In particular, there was a Jewish ritual called counting the Omer, which is a 49 day meditation practice that takes place between Passover and Pentecost, and each day you do a particular kind of Kabbalistic meditation. When I started doing this, I realized, wait a minute, you could do this with tarot cards and go deeper. And so I started doing it on my own then I started writing about it online, and after a few years of doing it, I thought, this is a book. And so that's what I did. I wrote a book on the subject. Which surprisingly was popular with tarot people who weren't Jewish and rabbis who'd never looked at tarot cards before. You know, I brought together people who never would have spoken to each other and I'm really pleased about that and I'm very happy to have sort of helped folks find a practice with the tarot that can really help sort of purify one's inner spiritual condition. And, the letters I've gotten from readers have really been profoundly moving to me, because, you know, after the book came out and I started hearing from people, I thought, you've done what you came here to do, right? That's what this life was about. And I mean, who knows? Maybe there's more I have yet to do. But I feel like I've done something really good for people. And that means a lot to me.
ELISE: Yeah. Well, I think connecting what culturally now seem like sort of party trick tools or witchy, not to deprecate witches at all, but these sort of like, oh, that's just, you know, silly. I think to reposition them as some of these original, primary tools. And, you know, people don't realize that in the Bible, the in the New Testament, that the three Magi are astrologers, that Jesus, for example, and I know we're not talking about Judaism now, we're talking about Jesus, but, well, he was…
MARK: Was Jewish.
ELISE: And that his association with the fish was astrological, the ichthys. Yes, it like demonstrated where a house might be safe because Christians were a persecuted sect. But that also his birth coincided with the age of Pisces. And so these things are very much a part of these spiritual lineages and have been displaced and disconnected and then sort of like put aside as, oh, like a fun thing to do at a party. And yes, they can be fun, but I think they're quite powerful. And Tarot, like originally, if you take away the triumphy, right? Like you take away some of the…
MARK: Major Arcana, yes.
ELISE: The major arcana, you have playing cards. They're still a part of our lives, right?
MARK: Indeed, and in fact, when they were first invented, they were playing cards. They were a game. And the triomphe, as you, you call them sometimes they're referred to as that. Most people call them another word that I don't like to use nowadays, trump cards. But you know, but and it comes from the Italian word trionfi, or triumph. These cards were part of a game, but there were also secret teachings related to them. And they came out of the Renaissance with, and all of these cards had particular meanings that have over the years really grown. And you know, one of the things, as a scholar, one of the things in retirement, besides writing about Tarot and reading Tarot, I do a lot of research into how Tarot and Kabbalah came together. And it really seems to have happened in Florence in the 15th century. When there was a very famous humanist philosopher named Pico della Mirandola, who studied Kabbalah and Greek mythology and Islam and Christianity. He was a Christian. But he was also interested in something called the Prisya Theologica.
He was looking for the religion that was at the core of all of these traditions. And he wrote something called the 900 Theses. He was very proud of it. 63 of these theses were about Kabbalah. And he sent a copy to the Pope, thinking the Pope would find this really interesting. It ended up that it was the very first book that was universally banned by the Church, and he had to flee Italy because they considered him a heretic. It was only because he was a protege of Lorenzo de Medici that he was saved from this. And it is my theory, you know, I don't have any hardcore evidence. I only have coincidental evidence. But you know, you look at where Kabbalah came together with Tarot.
He was familiar with Tarot. He knew Kabbalah. And when he sort of got out of jail, as it were, it is very possible that he used the cards as a way of teaching people the Kabbalistic concepts without using texts, they became coded and we can see historically that only some years later, the very first book, which was about the meanings of the cards, started to use some of the interpretations that come from a very famous Kabbalistic world called Gates of Light that he had in his library. So do we have a smoking gun? No, but I think this is how it happened. And and it's why my book is called Tarot and the Gates of Light because I really am interested in how these two things came together. Although I'm also interested in how we can use these cards in these meanings for deeper inner spiritual growth and exploration.
ELISE: Mm. I love that. And I typically love, won't surprise you, the mystical traditions of all the faiths, you know, Sufism, Kabbalah. I don't know enough about Kabbalah at this point, but the mystical Christian tradition, I mean, there's a coherence there, which I think is pointing to where our understanding of the world is perceptibly from the same core sensing, I would almost say, or interpretation.
MARK: In my book, I use a lot of terminology from other faith traditions as a way of explaining certain Kabbalistic concepts. For example, within Christianity, there's something called the via negativa, which you know, is from some of the great Christian mystics who say that there's no way that one can describe God, that any words are going to fall short because the divine is beyond language and beyond our ability to describe, obviously. And this is, in fact, the Kabbalistic position that one of the words for the divine in Kabbalistic Judaism is Ein Sof, which means beyond the infinite, that is, it cannot be described. It is the via negativa. And that is also true in Buddhism, which is what Nirvana is. It is beyond concept.
ELISE: So beautiful, because then you start to watch the world of theoretical physics, you know, continue to evolve and get to this point where it's like at some point, it just falls off a cliff's edge, right, in terms of our ability to structure, understand physical law. And so it also I feel like it was Hillman, he was talking about how people believe that the world can be explained in math, music, and mythology, essentially, but the way that these systems, if theoretical physics is the mystical tradition of science, but it also is arriving at some of the same conclusions.
MARK: Yes. Yes.
ELISE: So, I have done now two sessions with you, which were so fun, in part because the way that you do a tarot spread, and you are quite academic about it, which I also appreciate, and you deny any intuitive capacity just going with the cards and what's present, but you do spreads in the Sefero, right? If I'm mispronouncing that, but the tree of life. Can you talk about why you do that?
MARK: So the Tree of Life, it's a diagram traditional Kabbalistic Judaism that explains how reality comes into existence. It's the process through which the divine manifests. reality in every moment. So it is an ongoing energy system. If you were to look at it the diagram, you'd say, Oh, this looks like an atomic structure. Sometimes you might look at it and say, Oh, it kind of looks like DNA. It is a diagram, basically, of how energy moves through all of creation, and since we are part of creation, it's how that energy moves through us. Each of the positions which are referred to as Sefirot you know, when people do a tarot reading, they'll put the cards down in a particular spread, in a diagram, and most of those positions have very flat meanings that, you know, like this card in this position, it's about your family, this card in this position, it's about the recent past. The sphere road, each position has its own constellation of meanings, and is multidimensional, so that when you do a tree of life spread, and you're doing it with this way of looking at things, each spread can be read multidimensionally, so that it can be read psychospiritually. It can be read as something that's actually going on right now in the physical world. So, you know, for example, as that's an example that you may be familiar with you know, one can look at a particular card and talk about issues of fairness in one's life. Or one can look at it and say, there's a court case going on right now, right? And both of these things can be true. And that's one of the things that I love about this spread, is that it can take you through different levels of reality and experience and talk about them in ways that bring the spiritual into the everyday and the everyday into the spiritual.
ELISE: It's such a joy to do this with you because there are certain cards and I'm not an expert on tarot, but there are certain cards that we all fear, particularly when they're reversed or upside down, or, you know, there's a whole sort of superstition around. the tower card or the fool or inauspicious, or I think more traditionally perceived as inauspicious cards, but you told me stories about Baal Shem Tov and other stories from the Jewish tradition that re also reconceived those cards. Like when you see, for example, the fool, how does that function on multiple? And maybe it depends on where it is,
MARK: It depends not only on where it is, but contextually what's next to it. So you know, the tower, for example, is a card, the image generally frightens people because it looks unfortunate but it can be a very good card depending on what it's next to and where it is in the spread. Similarly the fool, you know, that you see somebody in this card about to step off a mountain. And so the phrase that is often used with that card when people are reading it, they'll say, Oh, it's time to take a leap of faith. But that's using a formula and my feeling is it's always important to bring in story with the cards. So if I can bring in a story which illustrates the concept of what taking a leap of faith means, you know, when we did a reading and the fool came up, you know, I talked about a Baal Shem Tov story with many people, I will bring up the film, The Matrix, because there's that scene where Keanu Reeves as Neo has to jump off of a building. And he's being told there's no reality here. You can literally step from one precipice to the other and you won't fall. And he gears himself up to run and he runs and he jumps, but because he doesn't believe that he can make it to the other side, like the roadrunner and the Wiley coyote, you know, the roadrunner gets to the other side, but Wiley coyote stops in the middle, looks down and waves bye and falls. It really is a function of your relationship to reality and what you believe, whether in fact you will be supported as you take this leap of faith. Is this something that you're willing to do or are you so owned by fear that you will fall? And so these are things I like to talk about when we talk about these cards, because I don't want people to be responding in fear, in a reading. I want to explore fear and what people might be afraid of, but, you know, the cards are there to help you find your courage and to find what it is you need to know in order to move forward in a way that is healthy for you.
ELISE: Will you tell the Baal Shem Tov story?
MARK: So, the Baal Shem Tov is a great Jewish mystical teacher who lived around in the late 17th century. And there was a time when used to go walking in the Carpathian Mountains to meditate, and he would walk really not even paying attention to where he was going, and one day he was walking up a mountain path, It was very steep. It was a precipice, really. There was just maybe about 10 inches of a pathway. On one side is a rock cliff face, and on the other side is a steep fall. And as he's going, there are some robbers who see him from a forest, and they decide to follow him. And they do. They think, we're going to get to the top of the mountain. We're going to rob him, and push him off. And he gets to the top of the mountain, and they're a few feet behind him. But he just picks his foot up and moves it into midair, when a mountain across the valley rushes to meet his foot, so that when his foot actually comes down, it's on the other mountain.
And then as he lifts his other foot, the mountain goes back to its original position, and the robbers are standing there on this other mountain, miles away from him, saying, what just happened? And it's how he just moved through the world with faith in his safety, right, that he would be held up by a greater force. And when the robbers saw this, they realized, in fact, he was a holy man and they became his followers. This is one of the many stories of the Baal Shem Tov, some of which are really true, and some of which are a little more, shall we say, metaphorical. But, you know, when I used to teach storytelling at the Jewish Theological Seminary, I would get to certain stories in the Bible, and I would say, just because these things didn't happen, doesn't mean they aren't true.
ELISE: Yeah. Well, for me, at least, that story has been just a powerful reminder. And again, it sounds so silly and cliche, but faith over fear, or something will meet you where you step, that is a little bit of an antidote to anxiety for me, particularly as I sort of have been striking out on my own and just following my intuition, quite honestly.
MARK: I always mention to people a lyric from one of my favorite BTS songs. Yes, I'm a BTS fan. They have a song called permission to dance. And when we talk about the fool, I also mentioned that there's a lyric from that song that goes, we don't have to worry because when we fall, we know how to land. And my feeling is, it's possible you can fall. But you also know how to land.
ELISE: And as you were pointing out to me, for people who follow me on Instagram and know that I own and have been wearing, Ken's rodeo black fringe rodeo shirt for years and I wrote a newsletter about like how strange this is because I saw the stills of the film, and I was like, oh, that's so funny, I own that shirt. And then the book, you know, this is when he's talking about the origins of patriarchy, and when he talks about how he thought patriarchy was about horses. But then you reminded me that in that BTS music video, he is also wearing that fringed rodeo shirt.
MARK: The most feminine member of BTS, actually, Jimin, is wearing this shirt that is considered or connected to hyper masculinity in some world.
ELISE: Yeah, that also I am wearing. I mean, it is a mythical, like quite powerful fringe rodeo shirt. It's amazing. And feels like a great cosmic joke.
MARK: Indeed.
ELISE: I like story time with Mark. I feel like you also told me a story about the tower, but I can't. I can't remember it. Are there any other stories that sort of show up in readings that you feel like are...
MARK: Well, part of my goal is to you know, if you follow me on Instagram, you'll notice that I often connect a card to a biblical verse. And connected to the story in that verse. Next week is Yom Kippur, and one of the things that we do on Yom Kippur is we read the story of Jonah, the prophet who ran away saying, no, no, I don't want to do this job, find somebody else to do it. And I connect this to the card, the king of cups, because in the distance behind the king, you can see the seas are in the middle of a storm and there's a storm tossed ship. And there's also a great fish that has come out of the sea which reminds me of the whale that swallows Jonah, or as they say in the Bible, a great fish, and then you see the king who is on a platform in the middle of this roiling sea, and he is like a surfer. He is not being tossed and turned. He knows how to ride the wave. And I talk about the way in which we run from our destiny or what we think is our destiny, what we're afraid of in the future. We see storms coming and we try and run from them when really what we need is the knowledge to surf them and how to learn how to use the energy of the challenges in our lives to move us forward rather than to crash us into the sand.
ELISE: Mm, it's beautiful. I was just reading, this morning, Alan Watts book, Easter, which is about some of the pagan origins of Easter, God, et cetera, and where he arrives is that the like central theme isn't so much the egg or the lamb or you know, but it is the story of resurrection, obviously, but it's water and the material water. And he just makes this point, he's like, part of it is essentially when we resist drowning, when we react in fear and sort of strike out and get stiff, it's like we sink, but when you relax, you float. And when you sort of welcome the water, welcome, in some ways the death, then you're supported. Anyway, it was like beautiful. I'd never really thought about that, how resistance makes us sink and acceptance makes us float.
MARK: Yes. And so the goal of when I do a reading for people is to help them find the places of resistance in themselves to whatever it is that they're asking about and help them learn the ways to float.
ELISE: Hmm. Yeah, so that's, I think, interesting about how you do reading, and we've workshopped to arrive at a central question. But why is it important, do you think, to have it not just, I don't know, let's see what happens, but to have it actually structured around a more concrete question?
MARK: Well, I think the the more concrete the question is the clearer the information that comes through the cards can be, that said, you know, I have done readings with people whose question simply is, what do I need to know? And, you know, so it's not focused on any particular thing. But then, as we go through the cards, one of the things I tell people is the cards don't only answer questions, they ask them. So we'll come to a card, and I will say, this card in this position is asking you X, so a reading is really an iterative, it's a collaborative process. And when the card has a question, it will often elicit an answer that helps me as a reader understand better how to interpret the other cards that go with it. And it becomes a back and forth process.
ELISE: Interesting. And you use the most traditional deck, right? Because obviously the iconography is...
MARK: Well, I wouldn't say it's the most traditional deck. It is the world's most popular deck. It was only, only first designed in 1909, actually.
ELISE: Oh, interesting.
MARK: You know, what is considered the most traditional might be the European deck, or a collection of decks that are referred to as the Marseilles decks, that came out of France in the 17th century or so. But there was a group of British mystics in the 19th century who decided that they wanted to redesign the deck. And everybody who was in this group of mystics, which included, among other things, among other people, George Bernard Shaw and Bram Stoker, the author of Dracula.
ELISE: Wow.
MARK: So a lot of, you know, some very unusual folks in there. And one of the folks who was named Pamela Coleman Smith, and she worked with another author, Edward Arthur Waite, and she was an artist who had synesthesia, you know, like when she saw colors, she would also hear music, you know, several senses would be activated for her. And they designed this more updated deck together because in previous decks, while the major arcana cards, the 22 cards, always had images, the other cards, which eventually evolved into the playing cards, only had the symbols of the suit. So if it was the five of cups, it was five cups. But they redesigned it to have something that was an image which evoked a feeling that was connected to the meaning. And in fact, one of the things that really fascinated me, because they were really deep into the Kabbalistic meanings of the cards. So that when they chose an image, it really connected to the Kabbalistic meaning of, you know, for example, the five of cups is connected this to the sphere of Givura. And Givura is about, Among other things, I don't want to oversimplify, but let's just call it stricture or, you know, tightness or loss, you know, a structure that is so tight that it breaks. And in the five of cups, what you see are three cups that have been overturned and what's in it is leaking out and there are two cups remaining standing. And the someone who's standing looking at them is kind of in mourning over what has been lost. And they're sort of dressed in blacks, which could be mourning, or it could be someone who's dressed as a judge. And part of what givura means is judgment and judgment that is so strict that it can lead to loss. That's how some of those meanings come through those images as they design the deck. Now, as I say, that simplifies it because each sphera has a constellation of meanings and you can go in lots of other directions. That's one way of talking about it.
ELISE: Now, what I love about what you do is that, and to use your word, constellation of people is a really good example of the mystical undertow. Undertow is not quite the right word, but the yearning, I would almost call it. This deep need, human need for ritual, deeper connection, and a connection to something unknown, mysterious, that feels like it drives our lives, or that we're in some sort of co creation or community with something that's much bigger than ourselves, and on a map of some sort, potentially. But I love that, you know, people that are revered as intellectuals, because there's so much striation in our world and I feel like I'm an entree for a lot of people who are like, Oh, well, you're smart and you like all of this stuff. So therefore it gives permission. But I think everyone needs more, it's like such a secret, right? It's like, Hey, like, Don't tell anyone. I need a, you know, a really good intuitive or like, do you have a really good astrologer? Or like, do you have an Enneagram? Whatever it is, it's such a dark secret for so many people. But it's the yearning is real.
MARK: The yearning is real. And one of the things, so most of my clients is like, so the joke among tarot readers is the most common question is, is he coming back to me? Right. But that's not the kind of question I get. While I do have people who are coming with questions of, you know, what do I need to know in order to find the right partner? And that is often a question of internal exploration. Most people are coming, you know, really to learn what they need to know to better connect with... the divine plan for them. You know, what do I need to know to be most authentically myself and on my path? And I really look at the cards as a way of exploring what are your divine gifts and what do you have to offer others? And what do you need to know from others that will help you get on your way?
ELISE: Yeah. I think it can be, not only a great help, but I find it more of a comfort. And in part because in so many religious traditions, there's became sort of a disconnection over time from the actual experiencing of a connection to the divine, right, particularly in Christianity, it became adjudicated through priests and men and no longer about an internal connection to the divine, which I think is more feminine quality, potentially not assigning that to any gender. And so I think too, there's something about what you're doing, which is not only that, here's a map or here's some understanding of spirit showing up in your life or some other force at play here, but also by marrying it with a mystical tradition, it's like, For me, at least, has been a conversation with faith or a way to contextualize my experience within a larger unfolding. And I think that that's such an essential need, right? Like, I'm here. Does this matter? Like, what am I doing here? What is this all about?
MARK: So let's go back to something you, a word you said, because I wanted to focus on that for a little bit. And that word is men, right? And how men have often been the adjudicator, as it were, right? The channel through which the spirituality goes. This is one of the reasons why I love tarot and why I love Kabbalah. In Kabbalistic Judaism, there is a recognition that the divine is beyond gender. God is not a he, God is not a she, because God is beyond that. And God is both a he and a she. There is very much a tradition of the Divine Feminine within Kabbalistic Judaism, and this shows up in the cards. The High Priestess, for example, is very clearly and you'll see this in the version of the deck that I use you know, she's holding a Torah scroll. This is the figure known as the Shekhinah. or the divine feminine within Judaism. And I find it really important as one of the reasons I love the Tree of Life spread is that the top three cards can be an indication or a map to your own spiritual connection. And it's important to me to point out to folks that oftentimes their connection to the divine is through the feminine and not through the masculine. And that it is important to recognize we're not to leave one side out, and that the way to sort of have your deepest experience is when you are able to bring the two together, in a holy union, as it were
ELISE: It's beautiful. I know we're close to the end, but I know you have your book, which takes people through this practice of working with the cards and a meditative tradition, is there for anyone who's interested in tarot or Kabbalah, are there other sort of great books or places that you recommend people start?
MARK: Several. But first, let me say one more thing about how I read, because I don't want to give the impression that I don't answer questions like you know, what should I do with my life? And we're talking to a 25 year old who is looking at a career change, right? You know, the cards can be extraordinarily practical and spiritual at the same time. These are interpenetrating dimensions. So I don't want it to sound like it's all up there and not practical. So, if you're interested in learning more about tarot and Kabbalah I have several books that I would suggest in particular. First of all, anything by the great teacher, Rachel Pollack is really superb. She died earlier this year, and it is a great loss to the tarot community. Her book, A Walk Through the Forest of Souls, is a deeply practical and philosophical look at tarot and Kabbalah. That may be a little advanced. So, you know, I would suggest for anybody who's first starting out, her classic book 78 Degrees of Wisdom is a truly fine book. For someone who's looking for more specific meanings for the cards, there's a book by a woman named Isabel Raddau Kliegman called Tarot and the Tree of Life. And that's very specifically about, you know, a very Judaic Kabbalistic way of interpreting the minor arcana, it's only about the minor arcana, it's about not about the larger cards. But I think those two authors you can't go wrong with. And of course, if you follow me on Instagram, I'm always writing about, you know, a card every couple of days in depth. So you'll, you'll learn a lot just from following me.
ELISE: Yeah, so that will all be in the show notes and and I'll put that in the outro as well. Well, thank you, I love spending time with you.
MARK: Thank you.
ELISE: I highly reccomend spending an hour with Mark Horn, you can find him at Gates of Light Tarot and also over on instagram under the same name. He is a fascinating mind and just really wonderful to be around, just very reassuring and solid, and full of insight and information And the two times I have come to him, one he has helped me craft a specific question, so if you don’t know what to ask he can help you get there, and second, he claims that he is not intuitive and it doesn’t ultimately really matter, but I will say that the cards tend to sing in a way that is almost spooky but it can be quite affirming to feel like what you’ve been through and what’s ahead is reflected in what’s in the spread and it’s an entirely different way of doing tarot. Alright, I’ll see you next week. Thanks for listening.
