Nedra Tawwab: Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships
Nedra Glover Tawwab is sought-after relationship expert, licensed therapist and New York Times best-selling author of Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself. Her new book, Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships is sure to hit the list as well.
In this latest book, Nedra puts her 15 years of experience to work to demystify the ways that our earliest relationships—those with our family of origin—can lead us astray, causing us to abandon ourselves to maintain connection. Like her first bestseller, Drama-Free is packed with insights that are broken up in such a way as to be instantly actionable. Ultimately, it tackles what dysfunctional families look and feel like—and how to break free. Nedra is responsible for mainstreaming a cultural understanding of “boundaries,” and she now tackles other ideas that we all need to address, like co-dependency and enmeshment. In today’s conversation, we cover a lot of ground, including parenting, re-parenting, and what it means to offer support without overstepping. Okay, let’s get to our conversation.
MORE FROM NEDRA TAWWAB:
Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships
Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself
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TRANSCRIPT:
(Edited slightly for clarity.)
ELISE LOEHNEN:
I guess this is your life now, right? You are just America's therapist every day on Instagram and otherwise.
NEDRA TAWWAB:
I’ll take that to some extant, being the thereapist.
ELISE:
You have an incredible ability to take very complex relationships and distill them and to themes that everyone can find themselves in, which is hard to do cause people are messy.
NEDRA:
People are messy. life is challenging. Relationships are hard.
ELISE:
I like the general framing of drama free too, because effectively, I mean by using the family, which is where we all learn to tolerate what shouldn't be tolerated, right? That's one of the opening statements, is that we tend to make unhealthy exceptions because it's family, and yet this should be the place where we can most assert our needs. Is that accurate?
NEDRA:
Yeah, it’s the place to be loved, not to be traumatized, not the place to learn to accept dysfunction in relationships, not the place to be unable to be yourself. It should be a place of restorative healing, a place of teaching, a place of learning. Now, you are not always going to get it right in families, things are done by people. It’s not going to be perfect, but to some extent, what can we do to have healthier family relationships?
ELISE:
I know you still have a practice, right? Although, are you sort of winnowing that down as you talk to everyone in the country?
NEDRA:
I am not. I just got off the phone with a client. I have a small caseload, but a consistent caseload and it'll probably be that way for eternity because I really like the work of being the therapist. It's just getting smaller and smaller and I'm okay with that, but I'm still helping people with, you know, so many of the things I talk about. I feel like that is a center of my work, the foundation.
ELISE:
I think everyone should be in therapy. I'll just say that, but do you feel like your work is primarily helping people reparent themselves or is it to cut patterns and parent the next generation better? Or is it just a mixed bag? Like, do you get to people while they're still actively forming these relationships, and reforming them, or do you see primarily people who are the recipients of not getting what they need from their families?
NEDRA:
Both, I think there is no one way that we’re still dealing with family stuff. I think so many people are still figuring it out, some people are in the just realizing it phase and trying to change and there are other people who have been dealing with family issues for years and years and years. There's a mixed bag. I think that, you know, there are times when the person is beginning to notice, I’m an adult now and I don’t wanna go home for the holiday’s or I don’t want my mom telling me how to be a parent or give me dating advice, or I don't want my dad or sister or whoever the family member is. I mean, and it's fresh information. And then there are other people who, you know, they might be at a fed up point. They're like, you know, I've had this type of relationship with my sister for 20 years. It's not changing. It seems like it's at a point where, you know, either I decide to be in it and change the way that I show up, or I choose to step away.
ELISE:
Yeah. It's interesting cause when you're in it, and you talk about this throughout the book, I think maybe even in the context of your own childhood and experience, that when you're a child it's what you know, right? This feels, this must inherently be normal, so it's only by living and experiencing other people's relationships or seeing what else is available, that you have a wider context and, in some ways, right? And then, from there, it's still hard to change those underlying patterns and to recognize what you maybe didn't get or did get. And then you had a line that was really, I think probably everyone can feel this, right? Everyone who's a parent and everyone who's been parented, you say parents might feel “I did everything for them while their child might feel, my parents were never there for me. Perhaps both things are true, but the incongruency and these realities must be explored, not denied.” I mean, that's probably one of the primary things, right? If someone's experience of someone else is inherently different than how that person thinks they're being experienced. Is that accurate?
NEDRA:
Absolutely. And it's worth a conversation in most relationships. As an adult I know there are many things happening in me. And a part of the many things is parenting, so what my kinds are seeing and what I am doing in the background could be very different things. They could say “you didn’t read me four stories” and you’re like but I read you one story every night. And they’re like, well I really wanted four, and you’re like okay well, I hear that. It’s not, “I read you one, that is all you needed” cause clearly it’s not cause this person is telling you they needed four and I offered one. So both of those things can be true. Do I need to say, you know, you need it too much, or do I need to say, well, I was a great parent anyway.
I really want us to understand that our parenting is judged by our children, not other people, not our partners, not what, you know, whatever blogger influencer says, it's the kids actually saying, I had a great parent. I did not have a great parent. So it's really not this, you know, this stuff that we do because in any relationship, we need to do the things that are important to the person, not the things that we think are important. And often parents parent from a space of this is what my kid needs, and the kid has not said anything. They, in many situations, don't even have the freedom to share what they need or want.
ELISE:
Yeah. Or to guess what they need. And then there's something in us too, which is, it's like a cultural idea as well that we are sort of inclined to define ourselves in opposition, right, sometimes. So it's like, well, this is what my parents did and I didn't like it, and now I will do the opposite. And then do you get into the sort of extreme? I feel that way, for context, my parents, my parents did a great job. And again, here we get into the nuance of like, yes, you can. Your parents can do an amazing job. And we all didn't get everything that we needed, but my parents were very, I don't know if performative is the right word for me, but like I didn't get a lot of rest. It was like everything had to be productive and they weren't, didn't condone sort of laying around and watching TV and being lazy. It was like, why aren't you reading blah, blah, blah, blah. All great, like nutritious things in some ways. But now my experience with my kids is trying to let them “relax” but then I judge myself for it. I don't know, it's like, is there a way to not be so extreme too? Is that one of the things, it's like temperance or grace or, breaking some of these patterns without doing something extreme in the opposite?
NEDRA:
Sometimes extremes are necessary and other times you can be too rigid with a boundary. Rest is healthy. Should we never be productive? Absolutely not. There are times where the kid isn’t doing well in school, maybe they do need to go to tutoring. Does a kind need an activity every single day where they need to be not sitting down reading all the time? No. But there is some nuance in how we see laziness and how we see rest and productivity. There is space for both. And I do think when you experience something, I was talking to a friend about this the other day, how as a child I was forced to have relationships with certain family members. It's your aunt's birthday. Call her. I'm like, happy birthday. Bye. It's, call so-and-so and talk to them. Like, I don't wanna talk to my aunt or uncle. Like, this is weird, you know? Or hey, say hi to them. I'm like, hi… You know? So now with my kids, I'm the extreme opposite. You know, I do not pass them the phone. I do not say, you need to call your grandmother. I'm like, if your grandmother calls you fine. If your grandfather calls you fine, but I will not force relationships on you, because I've heard so many people talk about that I'm gonna go with, maybe that's okay. You know? But there are times where I do issue some reminders: today is your grandmother's birthday. I don't necessarily say you need to call her, but I throw that out there. You know, if you choose to call her, you have that option. So that's where my flexibility lives. You know, I give you a little bit of a choice in this, but also, I am doing the opposite in some ways, and I don't know if it's a bad thing. I have said to my kids, you know, how does it make you feel? Because their grandparents will still do it. Their grandparents will say, hey, talk to so-and-so and so I'll say, you know, how does that feel to you? And they have said like, it feels awkward. Like, I don't know that person. So I'm like, yeah, so now I have to advocate and say, you know, hey, don't force him on the phone with, you know, this fifth cousin that they'll never meet. Like, don't do that.
ELISE:
Why is that, though? Because that's familiar to me too. I mean, that feels like a cultural or social standard. What is that?
NEDRA:
You know, I think there's this idea that love is having some sort of connection, even when that connection is inauthentic. I think about family as a classroom of people, in most of our classroom settings, there may be two or three people who we really connect with. There may be 10 that we get along with, but not everybody in that class is going to be invited to our birthday party, or it’s not going to be this close relationship. It may be that when you see them, you speak, and some people you won't even speak to when you see them. You know, I think our personality determines connection. The vibe determines connection. Our energy towards people determines connection.
ELISE:
I'm sure not everyone has experienced that, like check boxing in a way, where it's like, but that's, it's not real. And I think for kids, as you were saying, there's a sense of questioning that in a way that we don't necessarily question that we follow through with that stuff more as adults, even if we don't necessarily want to. Can we talk a little bit about, since I know you are actually exceptionally good at defining and then mainstreaming language, clearly there's a ton of everyone's diagnosing each other's narcissistic, but I feel like we have, and codependency has had it’s moment, but can we talk about codependency, and more specifically, enmeshment? Because I do think that that's not something well understood, but definitely people find themselves in that pattern, right?
NEDRA:
Enmeshment is unhealthy. I once talked to person about their close knit family and it didn’t sound like enmeshment; it sounded like they all greed to do the same things and be together every Sunday and it was like cool for everyone. Enmeshment is when people are unable to be different, and if you have any it’s problematic for the system. You have to be married. You have to have a child because that is what this system dictates. For most people, there's going to be some diversity in your family, and when diversity is not allowed and welcome, that's when we start to notice like, oh, this is an issue of enmeshment. Everyone has to be the same thing. The only way this system can function is if everything that you think and feel and do in your life is also a reflection of what everyone else is thinking, feeling, and doing. There is no separation of self from others. There is no joy in the helping of others. It is a, I have to help the others. I have no value necessarily, but I have to do it. It is more obligatory and not necessarily value base.
ELISE:
Why is it important to the system for the enmeshment? Why does it enmeshment happen? Is it just a mindless repetition of a pattern, or is there something deeper?
NEDRA:
Change. Lack of enmeshment means that something has to change if we do something the same way all the time, that can feel good to us. And there are certain things that maybe I do the same way all the time, or you do all the time, but with other people, can we determine what their lives look like. Can we determine their partnerships, they amount of kids they have, or if they choose not to have kids, or if they choose to go to college, how do we make space? You know, I have this expectation of you but also if I want you to be happy, then perhaps part of your happiness is this thing that you're doing that's a little bit different than what I'm doing. In families, we have to allow that diversity to exist just like we do in a workplace. We don't say, you know, oh my gosh, this person wants to do something different. We welcome it. It's like, okay, 20 ideas. With enmeshment, it’s like no, only one idea can exist. Anyone who has a different idea is a problem.
ELISE:
And is it a threat? Is it a threat to identity? Is it that someone making different choices inherently makes you question the choices that you've made? It's an interesting phenomenon because, you see it, but it's like, I just, I'm curious about like the, the roots of it or why it feels, so essential and maybe it comes down to identity like, we're a family where this is what happens. I don’t know.
NEDRA:
Well, I love a family tree because at the top of the tree it's usually like a person or two and then it beaches off like, four or five. We’re actually not one thing, we are actually all separate. We are not two people in one square on that family tree. There is a line and then the next box. And that's really how we are as people. We are separate, we are connected, but we are different branches. When we try to make everything the same, it’s problematic because now I have to look at myself and I'm like, oh wait, so you decided to… We don't like to think a lot about ourselves and what helps us not think about ourselves. Everybody just being just like us. That's the best way to not have conflict, to just have everybody be like you. Why is that person walking so slow? Why did that person, if everyone just did everything like me, my world would be great. I would have no chaos. There would be no conflict. . And so when you start to introduce that, it's like, oh my gosh, this is now a problem. They don't wanna do Sunday dinners anymore. Now they wanna change 'em to Saturday. What is wrong with them? It's like, oh, okay, well, you know, can we consider this.
ELISE:
Yeah. No, it's interesting that like desire for homeostasis, that desire to not change is very real and that our bids for certainty and predictability. It's interesting to think about it as like what's the biological need for that versus the cultural programming for that? Are co-dependency and enmeshment always involved and can be someone feel enmeshed, but there's no codependency or do they typically emerge together?
NEDRA:
There is some crossover, but with codependency there is typically some unhealthy, harmful or negative behavior. The term first came up in addiction culture, your know you’re enabling this addict. But we enable a ton of things. I have certainly heard of a parent not being responsible for their child but the grandparent takes over and does a lot of the parenting or, you know, you may not have to pay for their share of the vacation but you and your family have to pay for their share. You know, there are all sorts of ways that enabling and codependency happens within families. I think the biggest challenge with codependency is, when a family member is catered to when their unhealthy or toxic behavior is catered to, it makes the other people in the situation neglected. You know, if you have a sibling who's getting more care than you, or you know, more financial support, that feels a certain way to you. And often we take that out on not just the person doing it, but the other person involved too. So the codependency just, it doesn't impact one relationship, it impacts many. And it really doesn't set anyone up for success. The best way to help a person is sometimes not helping.
You know, I think about all of the help I didn't receive, but figured it out. Those were the biggest lessons versus someone rescuing me or doing the work for me, or me never having to figure out this thing because there is someone I can call. I remember when I started college, I did not know how to type very well. My mother, she had amazing impeccable typing skills and I would go to her house and I would say, can you type this paper? I think she did it the first time after that. She's like, you gotta type your own papers. Like you're going to college. You have to type your own papers. And you know, I heck boo boo boo. I'm happy to say now I type fairly well and it's because I had to practice it if I had her typing my papers, you know, all throughout college, I can't imagine, you know how I would feel when I started a job and I had to type something or you know, so there is a certain level of getting in the way that we do as we're trying to help people.
ELISE:
Yeah, no, certainly. And the tendency to help or fix, but then there's that line, right? As you're thinking about, as you're pondering, exploring people's childhoods between neglect and too much assistance. Right? It's a really hard, it's hard for anyone to, and I'm sure that's where so many issues in therapy come from. It's hard to find that sweet spot or that general framework where someone feels like they were supported to figure it out themselves. Is that the trick, like how do you create a baseline net of support where we're not gonna let you fall off a cliff, but you gotta learn how to get down.
NEDRA:
It’s equipping the person with the skills first, before allowing them to try that thing on their own. It’s one thing to say “cook dinner” and you’ve never allowed this child in the kitchen and you’ve never shown them any skills, so you’re telling a person who knows nothing, figure it out on you’re own, I’m not here to support you. That’s what neglect is. Periods can be very traumatizing for women, and many of us have mother’s who did not explain that process. We learned from our friends, we learn from older siblings, we learn from cousins, we learn from, so, you know, TV sometimes how to insert a tampon, you know, just all of these wild stories I've heard of. You know, I told my parent I was on my period and they just gave me some. That's a new situation. You don't know when to use them, when to change them, that you're supposed to carry them with you. There's so much information that you need for that lifestyle change and not teaching someone that before, allowing them to maybe do it on their own is neglectful.
ELISE:
Yeah, that is interesting, because I feel like, I wonder how many kids, I guess it depends on when, and now it's happening earlier and earlier, but how many girls/young women are like, yes, I wanna hear this from my mother versus now I just wanna watch it on YouTube. But I guess to not even offer or to not try.
NEDRA:
Well, that could be a way of caring. Here is a video for you to watch on YouTube, but that is showing them something that's better than saying, okay, go to the store and get yourself some sanitary napkins. Like what do I do here? You know, I think most neglect is unintentional. I don’t think a neglectful parent is intentionally trying to harm a child. Abuse is intentional. Neglect is a byproduct of not paying attention. So most parents who are neglectful either emotionally or physically, they don't even know that they're being neglectful until these sort of situations come up where a child is like, I had no clue how to deal with this, or, I did not know, you know, this thing. Or You tell me to figure out a way to get home, and I'm like, I don't know what to do, you know, whatever those things are, you could say it's tough parenting, but it's actually not very helpful. I have a friend who's afraid to swim and she tells a story of someone throwing her in a pool as a way to teach her. Yeah, you'll learn to swim. And I've heard that story from a few people. Like, you'll learn to swim if you're in the water. And it's like, that's actually traumatizing. I get the intent, the intent is like, you'll figure it out, but that's a very unfortunate way to figure it out. You're traumatized trying to figure out how to save your life. So although the person's intention is not to traumatize you, it's to teach you to swim. The situation is still traumatizing.
ELISE:
Yeah, it's interesting too, just thinking about all of these, the things that we're talking about, these cultural rights of pass passage. And then they've been sort of passed down to families like you teaching your kid in some ways, like what we would've called home economics. And that just doesn't exist anymore as a cultural construct. Like there are no initiation rights that, I mean there are in some cultures and religions obviously, but we're a neglectful culture in terms of having any extra support for people, like we’re not teaching any kids who might not being learning this at home. Right? Like there's, Youtube, Linda. com.
NEDRA:
I have found with my kids and their YouTube watching, they need to practice the skill. So they're like “I’ve watched 100 makeup tutorials, let me do your make up” and I look like a clown every time. Or “I know how to bake,” I’m like no, you need to practice on 50 faces before you take this show on the road.
ELISE:
Before you get that line at Ulta.
NEDRA:
Yes. Watching the video was not enough.
ELISE:
Can we talk a bit about these sort of six, I don't know what you would call them, personality types or patterns in dysfunctional families? The responsible one, the placate, the hero, the mascot, the adjuster adapter, and the acting out child or scapegoat. These seem like archetypes. Is that accurate? Like is this, when you're analyzing a family, can you typically be like, I see all of these or some of these dynamics at play.
NEDRA:
Depending on the amount of children in the family for sure, lots have their way of surviving unhealthy family patterns, and so I think the most bold way is to identify the person who is acting out. They really don’t get enough credit for the hard work they are doing to really say, look at my family. So often it’s like, what is wrong with this person? And I used to work with that person in therapy and the parents are like, this kid is cutting school, they're stealing, and I'm like, what's going on at home? Like, I don't, nothing, everything is great at home. Can you fix my kids? Well you're in the middle of divorce, you're trying to get this kid to pick sides. I mean, it's so much stuff going on and this kid's behavior is just a response, a reaction to the chaos they're experiencing at home. It's not like they're this autonomous person with no issues and they're manufacturing drama. It’s like, they're 14. You know this, this chaos comes from somewhere. So what's happening in these other situations that we need to maybe think about? These are the things that you can do, mom. These are the things that you can do, dad.
ELISE:
Yeah. So they're essentially the symptom. They're the symptom of a sick family or of a unwell organism.
NEDRA:
Yes, all of those things, they are the symptom of a larger problem. It's not them doing anything without, you know, some other things happening.
ELISE:
I love any opportunity to get into a therapist's mind, but when someone comes into practice with you, can you within a minute be like, oh, I understand who this person is and therefore the role that they played and what was potentially going on? Is it like backward Jenga?
NEDRA:
I could do that, but I don't, it's not very helpful because people are way more complex and what I find is the best way to help them is to get them to speak those things about themselves. So my job is to get you to say I acted out because… I don’t want to say that is their role in the family. I may think it. When you’re working with adults, the way they typically frame it is “I was bad as a teenager” and then we'll talk about why, because they, you know, even the adult, they feel like it's their fault, like they were bad or you know, this troublemaker for no reason. And I'm like, hmm, I don't know if you would be that way, without some other things going on. I don't think that's all your fault. I think you're really owning something that doesn't really belong to you, because if the behaviors stop when you turn 18, 19, are you really a bad person?
ELISE:
How much of it is determined by personality and who they, their essence, and how much of it is an expression of the structure of the family and its dysfunction?
NEDRA:
I think it's a blending of both. My personality has never been fiery, and so in my family I've always sort of easy to get along with, I guess, like, not quiet, I definitely was chatting, but I was entertaining. I mean, I could remember all the lines, do all the skits.
ELISE:
Breaking ice all over the place.
NEDRA:
So, you know, I like to get people to laugh. I like to get people to talk, you know, so a lot of people talk to me. I knew a lot of stuff, like even the adults, I would ask them questions and I'd be like, that's why you're not married to him anymore? You know, like I wasn't very combative, so if something happened, I'm like, oh, just be quiet until this is over. Like, I'm not gonna draw attention to it. I'm not gonna, you know, ruffle feathers. And I’d see people being like, I'm gonna say something, and it never worked out well, so I'm like, I'm not gonna say anything. Like, I'm just gonna get outta here when I turn 18, and that'll be that. But, you know, I think that it is a personality thing. I think it's just my personality because even now it's like I confront things. I definitely have difficult conversations, but even the way I do that, it's super calm. It's like, okay, here's my two cents, we can talk about it for hours, but this is where I am. You know, I'm not like elevated. I'm not gonna yell at you. That's just not my personality.
ELISE:
Right. No, that makes sense, there's another term definition that I think is really helpful and drama free where, not to jump around, but I thought that this was, I'm so glad that you said this. You made a list of the signs that it's safe to be vulnerable, because I also feel like we're living in a culture that appropriately venerates vulnerability or turned it into strength. But it's not always safe. It's not always safe or appropriate to make yourself vulnerable. People need to des deserve your vulnerability. Right. I'm not suggesting that we need to go into every encount armored, but there's a difference, if that makes sense. I feel like I just learned this recently where I had this idea of myself that I should be unprotected. I shouldn't need armored or I should just espouse vulnerability in all situations. And my therapist was like, no, no, no. Vulnerability is a mutual. It needs to go both ways. Like you can't be vulnerable into a void. And you made this list, you know about, you noticed the other person is curious about your story. It's like, again, I think you do such a great job of finding this balance between what is it to not be codependent or narcissistic? What is it to have a healthy boundary? What is it to be in relationship and be vulnerable and protective of yourself? Does that make sense? and I don't know if you've observed that in culture as well, but not everyone deserves to hear your story. Right. Whereas I think we are in a culture right now that's like, tell your story, be vulnerable.
NEDRA:
Tell your story to some people and be vulnerable sometimes. A big sign that people are open to being vulnerable is they are themselves vulnerable. If they can’t share anything about themselves, I’m not sure they’re able to absorb anything about you. When you notice that people are keeping it very surface or if they mention anything, oh, my dad is in the hospital, are you going to the party next week? Well I don’t think you need to be vulnerable with that person, I don’t think you need to go back to that dad comment. I think, I think they're letting you know, Hey, not me, not today. And you're right, I think there is a lot of like, be vulnerable with people, but I also want you to be safe, mentally, I also want you to be protected in your relationships, and a part of that is not being vulnerable with everyone all the time. There are some people who they're not ready for you.
ELISE:
Yeah, I think that's, again, it's nuanced, but it's important because not everyone gets to hear your story and then. I love this, it is such a human reaction, like, and I'm sure everyone shows up at your, at your door primarily, or many are driven by, I wanna “get over something” and you're like, there is no get over pill I could dole out like a pharmacist. But what’s that? Just that we want things to be in the past without having to actually experience and process them? That's too painful to go into them. Or is it that people have been in them for so long that they're finding it unbearable to be there?
NEDRA:
Nobody wants to be uncomfortable. We don’t wanna b too hot, think about things we don’t want to think about, any sort of discomfort, we want to get out of it. It’s normal, right? None of us want this. When we get into the thought cycle of not wanting to feel a certain way, we are just prolonging the thought. Now you are focused on the thought when maybe it'll just pass naturally. There are tons of things that we think about throughout the day. Sometimes it's a ex, sometimes it's this situation from childhood, but the more that you focus on, I should never think about this situation. You have a brain. You shouldn't want to think about stuff. That's a sign of a healthy brain, that you're able to think about this old stuff, even if it's things you don't want to think about. You don't wanna be fixated on those things. If you find that every day, multiple times a day you're thinking about something, perhaps that is problematic. But sometimes things come back up and the work could be, why is this coming up now? there some work that I still need to do here? Is it I saw something and it reminded me of this? Is there a conversation that perhaps I need to have? Are they just thoughts? Sometimes we just have thoughts and that's okay, but it's not an indicator that there's anything wrong with you.
I've worked with people who are, you know, at the beginning stages of grieving the loss of a loved one, and you'd be surprised how many people wanna get over it so quickly, their whole entire relationship with their parent in two weeks. I'm like, I can't help you. What I can do is sit here with you every week while you're crying. Now, I'll tell you, there will be some point where you stop crying. You keep coming. I promise you, you won't cry the whole session, but these next few you'll cry the whole entire session. That's natural. We want you to steal, you know, engage in your life in some ways, but you don't ever have to get over the loss of a parent, not ever. Now, do we want you to be able to function better? That is a goal. Yeah. I want you to be able to function better. I want you to be able to live with this death, but I'm not here to help you get over something that has been so big and so important now, you know, it could be death, it could be, you know, some unfortunate argument. It could be the loss of something else, but we don't have to get over these sort of things to continue on in life.
ELISE:
Yeah, no, absolutely. And obviously we have a culture that also does not like discomfort, so there's a lot of messaging about getting over death or getting over loss. Just very, very pernicious and painful. And it's beautiful to think about being able to say, you can just cry. Like we can spend 50 minutes and that's a good use of that time. Like we don't have to do work on this, or that having the emotions part of the work, and maybe it's inappropriate to call it work.
NEDRA:
I had a patient who would just sit there and cry and cry, and I remember thinking I wished someone missed me this much. Because this is love. And that is what I said to her, this grief is hard because it is a manifestation of how much you love this person. Wow, how impactful this person has been on your life. But the way that you're sitting in this, whoa, that is some deep love. And you know, I think you know, that person, it sounds like they really worked hard at that relationship and that is a loss to, you know, to not have that person in your life. But, you know, this is a part of the process.
ELISE:
That's beautiful.Well, Nedra, thank you for your time and I love watching everything that you do and I'm always looking at your Instagram and I'm like, I needed to know that. I don't know. You're so good at distilling into, I know that you call them nuggets. They are nuggets.
NEDRA:
Thank you, thank you. Well, I want to be attracted to therapy. That's why I started posted on Instagram, you know, us therapists, we listen to people talk about all this stuff, and over the years I've had some insight and I know that, you know, so much of the conversation I have with clients is about them. I just think it’s useful for us to make it understandable, digestible, and practical to, you know, someone's life.
ELISE:
Yeah. Well, and I think that therapy, besides offering insight into your own thinking and these patterns and healing. It's just, it's very powerful to have someone every week who's there to hold space for you, listen to you deeply and try to understand you. And a lot of people, a lot of us don't get that much right in our daily lives. So I think it's a very sacred act, at least for me, it makes me feel less over full, you know, less like an overfull sponge. So thank you for your service, always a delight.
Near the end of the book, Nedra says: “The trick is to keep living and stop trying to change the people who refuse to understand you.” And that hits. It also speaks to the core of what her book is about, which is going back to the beginning to understand how you learned to relate, and how you came to understand who you are in comparison to other people. This is where we learn these things and adapt to these roles and feel those first expressions of personality, and it’s certainly not all family. You look at anyone who is a parent, or you look at your siblings and you’re like, wow, we came into this world different and somewhat defined and then, in our relationships, in our families, and with the wider world. It’s like a sometimes distorting, sometimes polishing process, where you come to understand yourself in relation to the whole. And I love books like Nedra’s that boil that down, and with clarified language, see it. Because, as she has said, people are very complex and interactions are nuanced and you can get really lost in the tarpit of relating, but when you boil it down to basics and start to understand who am I? Who am I in the context of this family? What do I need? What needs were not met? And again, the other great gift of this book is that, in someways it lets everyone off the hook while holing everyone accountable, but this idea that as a parent you are never going to meet all your child’s needs. I have that conversation with my kids all the time, like you are going to have a laundry list of complaints and it will be really interesting to see what they are. And to recognize that I might be able to anticipate some of them, but I certainly can’t anticipate all. And it's not an enictment, it’s this living, evolving system. And it’s my personality, my husbands personality, and my kids. And we are all trying to coexist and trying to be ourselves within the context of a larger system. Anyway, it’s interesting stuff. Thank you, as always, for listening. See you next week.
