Nedra Tawwab: The Power of Boundaries
Nedra Glover Tawwab is a sought-after relationship expert, licensed therapist and New York Times best-selling author of Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself. In the book, Nedra puts her 15 years of experience demystifying the concept of boundaries to work, teaching us to get assertive in order to create healthy relationships with ourselves and our loved ones. She brings her no nonsense boundary-setting tips to the podcast today as our conversation explores signs we may need boundaries in our relationships, why people may not respect our boundaries and how to express our needs clearly, avoiding the all too common passive-aggressive spiral. She reminds us that it is ok to be less than perfect, to admit when we don’t have it all together, and to accept the help of others. Because when we establish healthy boundaries, give others grace, and accept grace ourselves we are bound to enjoy more successful, more rewarding relationships in all areas of our lives.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:
Boundaries: your owner’s manual…
Signs that you may need boundaries…
Our favorite form of communication…
Leaving room for error…
MORE FROM NEDRA TAWWAB:
TRANSCRIPT:
(Edited slightly for clarity.)
ELISE LOEHNEN:
It’s funny, reading your book and following you on Instagram, I feel like whenever you pop up on my feed, and I felt this way about your book, you don't have to read it in a linear fashion, whatever you happen to open to resonates. It's just like moment after moment of hits of like.
NEDRA TAWWAB:
It's the greatest hits book.
ELISE:
How are you so good at distilling our complex human interactions into these bite-size truth bombs?
NEDRA:
I think it's taken a lot of practice. I certainly love psychotherapy and I love how complicated it can be. But also as a therapist, it is not cool explaining concepts to your clients in the jargon that we use. I know that certain words on the internet are having a moment, but I don't usually say to people in therapy, like you're having a boundary issue, or this is very narcissistic or this person is gaslighting. We really talk about the behaviors, not the labels, even with anxiety and depression. And so if I'm using a therapeutic technique or I'm talking about these really complicated things, I have to think about maybe a show, someone is watching on TV that will help them understand the concept or some example that will really break it down, because that's how people are able to apply stuff. When we're speaking in a very complex way, and we're using all of this lingo, we can miss a lot of people and it's not bad to have, you know, the terminology. But I also think that we can capture more people by speaking to them in a way that they can truly understand.
ELISE:
It’s funny, I've been in therapy for years now and I love my therapist and I know boundaries is having a moment, and you probably deserve a lot of credit for mainstreaming this idea, but maybe a year or so ago, I said to my therapist, I think I don't have any boundaries. And he said, I would suggest to you that every single thing we've talked about in therapy is a boundary issue.
NEDRA:
Yeah. It's so funny because people are like, how did you come up with the concept of this book? I'm like, I've been helping people with boundaries for 15 years. I haven't been calling it boundaries.And I still don't say it. That's how I know my clients follow me on Instagram, because they'll say it like, I'm working on my boundaries. I'm like, where did you get that? Like, I'm not saying that to you. Where are you getting this? We've been talking about your mom for years, and now you want better boundaries with her. We've been talking about how to say this and what might happen if like… that is the work of boundaries. We're not necessarily labeling it as boundaries, but we've certainly been doing boundaries work for years.
ELISE:
I have how I would define boundaries, um, in a human way. But how do you define it?
NEDRA:
I think of boundaries as our owner's manual. Like the way that we're able to tell people how to treat us and what's needed, like, if this happens, then do this. This is what I like. And don't like. It's like the rules that you give the babysitter when they're watching your newborn. You let people know how you feel safe and comfortable in relationships.
ELISE:
It's so powerful. It's funny even just saying the instructions that you would give your babysitter for your newborn. And even that I feel like is hard for some of us who don't wanna step on someone else's autonomy or pride. As you say, there's guilt and setting boundaries, and there's also fear of being mean or fear, When in reality, if you know what someone needs from you, it's actually much easier to be in relationship.
NEDRA:
Absolutely. I thrive on clarity. I'm always like, tell me exactly what you want. Like I do so well when things are not ambiguous, when it's like crystal clear, like give me a paper and say, these are the things I'd like to see. And I can do those things. If you're expecting me to operate with my creativity around how to treat you, I'm going to treat you like I would treat other people. And I'm not sure that that's what you need.
ELISE:
I always think, and I don't know if you relate, this is one of my favorite movie scenes. But in The Breakup with Vince Vaughn and Jen Aniston, have you seen that movie?
NEDRA:
Absolutely. I love The Breakup. It is quite hilarious.
ELISE:
You probably know the scene I'm talking about, but I think it's the final moments before they break up and sorry, if this feels like a, a spoiler, but people probably know the scene I'm referencing where, you know, they have a dinner party she's cooked and prepared and he's playing video games and she's like, can you help me do the dishes? I would love if you'd help me. And he's like, oh, maybe later. And she was like, I want you to want to do the dishes. So often, instead of just saying emphatically, do the dishes, we hope that someone actually wants to meet our need. That feels important. Or that's how I would decode that scene. But I'm curious about your perspective.
NEDRA:
In a romantic relationship. I think enthusiasm is important 50% of the time. We can't apply it to everything. I don't really care if my partner wants to do the dishes, I just want the dishes done. So you don't have to do it and turn on music and dance while you're doing them. Not a requirement for me. I just want them done. Now, there are other things I do want you to be enthusiastic about, but I am willing to pick which things those are and the dishes is not going to be one. Um, other household things. Aren't going to be one. There are some things I want you to care about. I want you to care about my birthday, you know, and I say that sometimes I will say like, this is a big moment. Smile, high energy, high energy. I say that a lot, like high energy. I'm about to say something big, get your energy up, get your, like, I want you to know this is the time for you to really put on because I don't want you to be like, oh, that's nice. No. Oh, that's nice. Yay. Like that's where, that's where we're going with this one.
ELISE:
I think so many of us have been fed a romantic fantasy that your partner should be able to anticipate all your needs, meet all your needs. I remember one time early in dating my now husband. I wanted him to pick me up from the train. This was in New Jersey. And I wanted him to pick me up from the train station, because it was late and his apartment was like a eight block walk, and I kept hinting and he didn't get the hint. And when I walked to his apartment, I was pissed. And he was like, well, why didn't you ask me? I don't understand. Was I supposed to read your mind? But we have that fantasy, right? That somehow in a relationship you are always simpatico and you, your partner is right there with you modulating the world. And that's not true. And we need to get over that. Get over that idea.
NEDRA:
Yeah. I think in a fantasy world, it is like if I was to create like a fantasy husband, he would absolutely know everything. I mean, that's the fantasy, but in reality, people aren't thinking about us 100% of the time. It's like, oh she's walking pick, pick the bottom of her dress up. Oh no, she need, you know, like that would be weird, right? Like if someone is completely not thinking about themselves, like, would you be able to have a job and be a partner? If you 100% focused on this, like you wouldn't be able to do most things. If 100% of your attention was on this other person, there is this idea that good love is mind reading. It is not true. Good love is love. That is well communicated. And as we're in relationships, hopefully they get better because our communication is improving.
ELISE:
And I think as you improve your communication, which also requires the deep work of even understanding what you are wanting and needing, which I think maybe not to be gendered about it, but I think it's difficult for a lot of women in particular. But it clears the way for a more functioning relationship. How can people know? And again, this is a universal topic and everyone needs boundaries, but what are the ways that you, you have a list in your book that felt very resonant for me about the signs that you need boundaries. Maybe it's in a specific relationship or situation, but can you sort of take us through what that looks like?
NEDRA:
Well, you know, as a therapist, I started to discover that when people need boundaries, they start to have issues around anxiety in their relationships, some depression, because they're not able to really stand up or they feel hopeless about improving certain scenarios. Burn out. When people start to say, oh my gosh, I hate work. I have to work on weekends. Oh, this person keeps talking to me about this thing. So burn out, frustration. Sometimes moodiness, when we get really mad at other people for asking us stuff, that could be a sign that we need some boundaries around, maybe saying no and not, you know, giving them the freedom to constantly use us as a resource. Our feelings are really huge indicators on where we need boundaries. When we're feeling upset, frustrated, anxious, confused, angry, those are all huge indicators that boundaries are very likely needed.
We tend to bypass that because we like to think that we can be all things to all people. So it must be us. We have to figure out a way to better do this thing. You know, I love efficiency books. I'm constantly reading any book about time management, digital reduction, all of this stuff, but I could, I could write the book because you know what the books typically say, it's like do less. It's like do less. But instead of us doing less, we think there is this great strategy that has that we haven't discovered about how to attend five parties in one day. Like that's just not possible. And so we burden ourselves with, oh my gosh, I don't wanna set these boundaries because I should be able to do all of these things. I don't know why I'm frustrated at this person or about this thing.
And it's like, you probably need a reduction around duties. You probably need to figure out a solution that doesn't involve you always being the, the resource for people. That's really hard for us to hear, because it sounds like failure, right? To not be maybe a parent who can work full time, take kids to seven things, and then be a great friend, and also a great partner, and all of these other things. It feels like a failure. Like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm like, do you know what people used to do? Like maybe a hundred years ago, one thing they were not great at marriages. Marriages didn't include like communication. They like farmed. That was it. Do you know all the things we're adding? I mean kids were even like little farmers. It wasn't like this. Oh, let's play with our kids. Let's take them to dance. It’s like we have put on so many things and we expect ourselves to do it without seeming like it's being done. Oh, I don't know who cooked that meal. It's like, you cooked it and you were panicking.
ELISE:
I love on that note. I love Eli Finkel’s book, The All or Nothing Marriagel It's such a clarifying read about how partnership has evolved. And as you say, sort of this mounting of emotional needs and this idea that maybe as our friendship, as our communities have gotten smaller, in some ways that we put so much on each other, on our partners, to fulfill needs that maybe need to be met elsewhere. You mentioned sort of this idea of how bad we feel right about setting limits on ourselves and on other people. But I thought it was a really moving point in your book and very true. Um, where you talk, you write, “it took years for me to realize that I wasn't helping people by fixing them. I was getting in the way of them doing the work that they needed to do for themselves.” And so often when we particularly with more intimate relationships, maybe with parents, close friends, partners, we think that by not helping or fixing we're abandoning them, but really that's sort of a codependent behavior, right? And many of us are codependent and sometimes actually setting a limit so that they can learn is the kind thing or the right thing.
NEDRA:
That was old codependent, Nedra talking there. My new strategy is, it's really remarkable when people tell me a problem, I just listen to it. That's it. So that is that isn't sometimes I will work through a solution in my head. And the other day I was telling my husband about a problem a family member told me, and he was like, why didn't you tell them this? I said, no, no, no. They didn't ask my opinion. They just wanted to vent the old me would've jumped in and offered to help. Here are the solutions here, work through your problem. You didn't ask me to do anything here. I am trying to make you feel better about this problem. I see you creating, but it's also not my business. I just wanted to talk to you today. And if that's the problem you have, I'm here to listen to it. I don't have to solve it for you. I don't have to give you tips and solutions because what you called me for was to just talk through your problem. So I'm listening.
ELISE:
I feel like women might be actually better equipped for this, but isn't that sort of another big, not limit setting that, this idea that often people just want a friendly ear, right? As they process, they don't want you to jump in with an advice. They don't want you to jump in with your interpretation of events. They just need to talk.
NEDRA:
Absolutely. I learned when I was in college, I had a friend who would always ask my advice with dating. And after a while, notice that she never listens to me. I would get so upset because I thought it was really good advice. It was stuff that I was practicing in my own life. I'm like, why don't you just, and she would ask multiple people, you know? Like what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? And she would do like her own thing. And I was like, whoa, this is so annoying. I almost don't wanna be your friend anymore because you won't listen to my wonderful advice. So I thought I also didn't know probably, but anyways,
I just stopped. I was like, you know, when she asked me this thing about dating, I'm just gonna say, what do you think you should do? And I started doing that and I felt so much better about the relationship she noticed. And she was like, you don't give me advice anymore. I'm like, yeah, you'll be your own thing. Anyway.
ELISE:
And now you're like, who's the New York Times bestselling therapist, by the way, who's America's therapist. You kind of are. Um, I, no, I love that. And I find even when I'm talking to friends and maybe it is venting, but I will often preface it to say, I do need, I need your advice here and or not. Right. I think sometimes we actually are even more clear than we think in what sort of intervention or what we want back. But maybe I've just learned how to do that over time.
NEDRA:
I have a solution for that. If we really don't want advice from people, we really have to think about the person we're talking to because some people can't help, but get advice, give advice. There are some relationships where people know a lot about certain things, and perhaps those are the people we should vent to. Like if you're in the market to buy a home, maybe talking to that person who's recently purchased a home or who you're interested in. But if your friend is a forever renter, and they're giving you real estate advice, remember that you took the conversation to them. They didn't just start giving you that advice. And now you're like, why are they telling me this? Because it's very hard for people to not give a solution when you have a problem. So if you don't want their advice, talk to the people in your life who you might find to be particularly skilled in a certain area, but we have this thing just like you mentioned the All-or-Nothing Marriage. We have all or nothing Friendships. We have all or nothing Coworker-ships. We have all or nothing family relationships. So our parents should be able to give us, food, shelter, water, insurance advice, life advice, advice about everything. When we have to accept sometimes wait, my parents don't know about this. Because we'll get mad sometimes with people not giving the correct advice for getting that this person doesn't have a lot of knowledge in this area. Perhaps it is me who needs to step back and say, you know what? This isn't the best conversation to bring to them.
ELISE:
Yeah, no it's so true. Or at, as is the case with my mom, for example, who I love. But she has so much anxiety. And so if I bring her a problem in my life, I can't, I can expect it to mount her anxiety. And then for that anxiety to be put back on me. So some people also are like, are not the right person to help you calm down or process something that feels difficult until you've done that work yourself or with other people first, because I, I don't know. I, I'm probably not alone in that where sometimes I'm like, wait, you're supposed to be telling, assuring me that everything is gonna be fine.
NEDRA:
I certainly have a relative who, if you share something with this person, like, Hey, we're going on vacation, do y'all have enough money for it? Has it been it's like, whoa, wait a minute. This was a joyous event. What just happened now? I'm I can't afford it. Like what just happened? So you, you do have to think about like, who you're sharing with, like this is their tendency. They have these, these anxious habits. Like, do you wanna continue to share with this person?
ELISE:
So for people and this, this list also hit. I mean, there are, I think these people are really great teachers. If you can think about it that way, who don't respect, you might think that you're setting boundaries and yet they don't respect them. And when you were talking about depression, anxiety, burnout, like these are the people who probably engender that feeling, right? It could be a boss, it could be a parent, it could be a friend. You have a list. And again, I hate making people who you're like, I wrote that book two years ago, but you know, the reasons people don't respect your boundaries, can you run us through some of those reasons, sort of that self-diagnosing manual?
NEDRA:
I will state what I remember because yes, I wrote the book two years ago. The biggest reason is that we don't clearly state a boundary. Lots of times we think by stating a problem, we are stating a boundary, but a problem is not a solution. A problem is a problem. So when we say to people, I don't like it when you show up late, we're just saying, I don't like it when you show up late and that's great, you're expressing something, but you haven't said to them, I need you to arrive about 10 to 15 minutes early. Or this is a really important event for me, and I need you to be there on time. Those are the boundaries, not the problem. Consistency. We're often not consistent with our own boundaries. We will set a boundary with someone and then we'll feel bad and we'll let the guilt dictate whether or not we continue to honor our boundary. People don't respond to inconsistency. They like it actually, because it means that they keep to get getting to do whatever they are doing.
Like I don't have to change anything. They don't even, you know, it's like, Hey, at nine o'clock, this happens. And then every day at nine, it doesn't happen. It's like, this is great. This is exactly what I want. So it's important that you're consistent with the boundaries. There's a huge fear around what to say and how to say it. We're so fearful of being perceived as mean, or people not liking us once we set the boundary, which in some cases is true. People can be offended, but it doesn't mean that you were offensive, right. It could just mean that they didn't wanna hear it. They weren't ready to receive it, but that can really scare us away from placing boundaries that are really helpful in relationships. Some of the other things that I see come up from time to time is really just not knowing that we need boundaries. As I mentioned earlier, that we think that the solution is us doing something more efficiently or mastering some skill that we haven't learned yet when really the solution is the boundary.
ELISE:
You write about sort of, and this is my tendency, actually, all of these things, like sort of wavering or having flexibility in that boundary, apologizing for setting the boundary is something that I do. And then like explaining myself and you say like, don't say too much, but I will literally be like, this is why I can't do it. And then there's this. And then, and then you're offering someone an opportunity to be like, well, there's a window in there where those things don't sound so important that you can't move them. Or, um, like you give the example of someone asking you to help them move. So instead of just firmly and letting it be, oh, sorry, I can't help you. We immediately go to all the reasons why.
NEDRA:
Allthe reasons why you can't do it. And when we do that, there's always some wiggle room, you know, I can't pick or no, I'm not picking you up from the airport because I have this meeting at four o'clock and then at two o'clock I have, they're like, okay, I could just wait there. It's like now I'm to picking them up from the airport. I just didn't wanna pick them up from the airport. But you never said that.
ELISE:
And why does that feel mean? Like you talk about mean, or the guilt are those just natural human emotions and we just need to get comfortable with the discomfort or what, what, is there something in the way that we're raised that, because we're never taught that it's appropriate to have knees, is it because the assertion of no, I don't like that is so often steamrolled in children.
NEDRA:
One thing I am learning to practice as a parent is affirming my love for you. Even when you annoy me, frustrate me, upset me, do something that's inappropriate. Um, throw a tantrum. Like I love you, but you're just misbehaving. You know? I love you, but you're irritating. And I wanna go the other way because you keep yelling, you know, like I still love you. I don't care how upset I get at you in, in the course of this day tomorrow. I don't care how many tantrums you throw. I still love you deeply unconditionally. You're my favorite kid ever, because we don't feel secure enough in our relationships to make a mistake.
Yesterday my eight year old, I was doing her hair, which is not her favorite thing. And she was screaming a little bit and after we were done, it was gorgeous. And she said, you know, earlier while I was screaming, I didn't really mean it. It was hurting a little bit, but I'm sorry for all of that, I'm gonna try to do better. Next time. I said, yeah, you know, it was annoying. It was annoying. Like it really draws out the process. I love you anyway. And I'm gonna do your hair every time because I want, I want your hair to be taken care of. Even though you're annoying. So yeah. You committing to being less annoying. That would be amazing. I'm gonna do it anyway. I'm not gonna stop. I'm just gonna be like, ah, but I still love you and I'm gonna do your hair.
ELISE:
Oh, that I feel like there's so much profundity in that Nedra because really is that the, the core underlying fear is the loss of relationship and that when we go to battle or assert our own needs, that we fear, oh, if I'm not just like, sort of an open, if I'm not an ATM for this person, if I'm not just here for the taking, they will have no use for me. And they will abandon me.
NEDRA:
That is true sometimes. So I don't wanna deny that as a fear, because that is true sometimes where if you don't help some people, they will leave the relationship. If you don't always show up for them. I've I talked to people who said, I am no longer friends with this person because they didn't come to my birthday party. I'm like, gosh, I got a whole list of people I need to mark off. I have a ton of people who didn't come to my birthday party. But you know, I give people, grace, you know, you don't have to come to every birthday party I have, or you may not have to come to any, depending on, you know, now if you go to everybody else's birthday party and don't come to my birthday party ever I might feel away. But if birthday parties, aren't your thing. Hey, you're treating me like you treat everyone. I don't have to have special birthday party energy from you. So how do we really get to know people and trust that we can have these boundaries and relationships? There are some people we cannot, but are those a relationships that we need to pursue and nurture?
ELISE:
Maybe it's better to know. I think in the book, you profile or talk about people in early relationships too. And I was this way I'm sure. But in my long dating life, the way that we just also naturally contort ourselves right. To fit what we think the spec sheet is, even so much as denying like, oh yeah. I don't know if I wanna have kids. Like really critical things, in order to stay in relationship, with the hope that these things resolve over time. But I think you state, like, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but effectively, like listen to people, and be clear about like there's no, no better time than now to start being clear about your needs.
NEDRA:
I think with boundaries, you have to come in like a teacher and be really clear at first. And maybe if you wanna be a little flexible later, that's good, but just being really clear because you do you wanna be in a relationship with someone who really, really, really, really, really wants kids. And you're like, I don't know, like the whole relationship will kind of be about that conversation and seeing if you're ready, like, we have to love people enough sometimes to let them go and to find people who we can actually be in long term relationships with, because some things we'll change our mind about. And some things we won't, we know maybe it really is, am ambivalence. And maybe it's like this certainty that we are afraid to share with this other person, because we want to keep them.
ELISE:
Let’s talk a little bit about passive aggressiveness,because I feel like that's a common that's as you remark, like, um, it's the number one way we communicate our feelings and needs
NEDRA:
Are you willing to own that?
ELISE:
Am I willing to own that personally?
NEDRA:
Yes.
ELISE:
Probably. As you say, like, so you haven't communicated your need, but you've acted it out. I think that's brilliant and true, right? Like so often. And, and do you think that we do it intentionally or do you think sometimes again, we can feel what we need, but we haven't actually metabolized it in order to be able to state it. And so we keep it in that feeling body and act it out.
NEDRA:
I think we live in a society where expressing needs is not the popular thing to do. So many of us lean towards being passive aggressive because we're really trying to protect the people we're in relationships with. So we are doing it as a way of communicating, but also not really communicating because the things we might say might hurt the other person's feelings. I don't know if it's possible to be 100% assertive. I think if someone was 100% assertive, we would call that person a jerk or you know, like rude or these sorts of things. So I do think there is some balance there. I think the way we choose our words is really important to manage whether or not we're being passive aggressive. And sometimes I will have conversations with people and say, Hey, I know this may be hard to hear, but I'm saying it because I don't wanna later like commit to this thing and then be upset with you for doing it. Like I am trying to prevent my resentment. So let me say no now, so I won't show up for you, but be mad the whole time, because that's what happens. And I know it I've experienced it where I've committed myself to something and I'm like, I really didn't wanna do this. I really didn't wanna help this person. And I'm mad at them for what I have felt like making me do it. And it's like, actually I said, yes, when I should have said, no, I don't want to do this thing.
ELISE:
One thing that's helped me and my husband, I feel like, and I learned this trick from Brené, where she was, I think the example she was giving was that she and Steve were going on vacation. And he looked over at a stack of books that she was bringing and their kids were young and he was effectively, he was like, oh, so I see your expectations of this vacation or that you're gonna sit and read and I'm gonna take care of the kids. And so they made it a practice to start saying both their expectations. And I guess you could even say their needs for weekends or vacations. And so I adopted that and I, and I think it's helpful, but you, I want to be fact checked from you. But at the beginning of every weekend, usually it's by text, which is odd, but I'll text my husband and be like, this is what I need to do this weekend. Like, I need to go on some walks. I want to make dinner. I need to work for four hours. What are your needs? What, what are your expectations? And it feel it's like maybe that's a beginner's way of easing into it. So it doesn't feel so selfish.
NEDRA:
I think that's an excellent practice because I can't tell you how many disputes occur, because we're not clearly expressing our need, especially like on vacation. Vacation is a sacred thing. You've taken time away from work. You've spent some portion of money. You have an expectation, whether it is to relax, to explore the city, to do whatever. And if you are not on the same page, even within friend groups, I've heard tons of stories of people going on vacation with their friends and it being terrible because some people wanted to stay in the room. Some people wanted to, no one has discussed expectations. It's like, I, I expected that we'd be exploring. And it's like, no, they just wanna lay down and watch Law & Order, like, that's a conversation you need to have. We could vacation together.
My vacations are about how, how relaxed can I get, let me try this. I just wanna shower and not commit to anything. So like, whatever happens happens, but I don't wanna plan it. So it's like, Ooh, I'm hungry. Let's go get something to eat, you know, but not super structured because I feel like life, my life is so structured.
ELISE:
Yeah, no, my friend Jennifer calls them bed days and on vacation want bed days. I just, it can be by a beach, but I just, I literally, I just need to be, um, horizontal more or less. Smilar to you. It's imy downtime. Well I'm glad that that's, because I tend to be codependent. And so I probably into a little bit of enmeshment, like how do you, how do you define codependency? Cause I feel like codependency is also having a moment or about to have another moment as people figure out how to bring themselves into sort of right relationship with each other.
NEDRA:
I define codependency as neglecting, submitting to someone else's needs, dishonoring yourself, forgetting that you are a person to take on what someone else needs, wants, or has to be often co-dependency is so subtle because we don't even realize we're doing it. We forget that we have desires. And what I find with codependency is it can work long term. It can really work long term and here's the thing with it. It's not a problem unless it's a problem. I know tons of people in codependent relationships, it looks problematic to me, but it's working for them. That would not work for me, but it doesn't seem to be a problem that you have to take care of this person. And you're not able to do these things that you say you want to do. You seem frustrated a little bit, but not enough to make any real changes.
Now for me, I don't know if I would be able to tolerate that, but for other people it's such a way of being that they feel as if it is a natural part of relationships to show up as a servant to this other person and to appear needless. When that's just not real. You know, how many needs a human have? When I think about, you know, if you think about an infant, the need to be fed, held, washed, and all of these things is so much of what we need now. And when we're not getting that from other people that, that attention, that sense of belonging, that care and affection, we really feel that. So to pretend you don't need it, what a sacrifice we're making to be in a relationship with someone. Wow.
ELIES:
But as you say, some people seem to either adapt to it without huge issues or, or do you feel like the resentment is slowly building or the disease is slowly and that those people invariably ultimately erupt or do you think some people maybe are just gonna live their lives like that without even recognizing that it's unbalanced?
NEDRA:
I think that frustration shows up in the safety of other relationships. I don't think they feel safe enough in that codependent relationship to really have those conversations, but it'll show up in other relationships that are a little bit healthier where you can have this level of frustration for someone not doing something. It's like really, I have to do it, this other person they ne you know, so sometimes siblings will see this with their parents and you know, maybe one sibling, or you may see this with, with your partner and their other relationships, just all over the place. There is this, you know, like everybody doesn't have to play by the same rules in this codependent relationship. It's like these things aren't problems. But for some reason with me, you take up an issue when, you know, whatever happens or doesn't happen. So it's a very interesting thing to observe, but it is also a indicator of how safe they feel with us and how unsafe they feel, or maybe fragile they feel in the codependent relationship.
ELISE:
It's interesting to think we think about a relationship with one person as being sort of its own distinct thing, but really it's an ecosystem. And so what we don't resolve over here or what we don't resolve with our parents, we try to resolve with our own children or these things get passed around.
NEDRA:
Yeah. Codependency. It is having a moment. I hope that we can accurately efine it. I feel like there are so many people now, like I'm co-dependent, she's codependent and it's, you know, it's really tough because I think sometimes what we're talking about is just someone not doing something that we would like them to do. And that's not really codependency. There's typically some upholding of inappropriate behavior. And a lot of what I'm seeing defined as codependency is not, that is not any upholding of inappropriate behavior. It's just someone not wanting to do something for you. So I don't know who should be labeling that as codependent. They didn't wanna come to my, you know, to my thing—they're codependent, eh, no, that's not codependency. That was just the choice that they made. But, you know, I hope that we can start to properly define what codependency is and isn't.
ELISE:
We sort of kicked off this conversation with you talking about moving past labels and we love labels, you know, narcissistic, as you mentioned, codependent, boundaries. Can you say a little bit more like, even in the context of co-dependency about how people can actually move past the label to identify the behavior that they're really responding to?
NEDRA:
I think of the behavior as what is happening when we get into this spirit of this person is depressed, anxious, borderline,having a boundary issue, codependent what behavior you're saying, let's speak about the behavior because not all of us respond well to label some of us do. It helps us feel like connected, have some understanding around it, and we certainly can Google it, but there are times when you don't wanna be labeled or codependent it's, I'm not getting what I need in the relationship with this person who is completely ignoring me. So I think there are times you label and there are times to lean into what behaviors are experienced.
ELISE:
So on Instagram you did a post where you essentially were like break the habit of, and it's, it's a longer list, but trying to win every argument, only noticing what's going wrong, competing with people who aren't competing with you having the last work. Is that what, where does that impulse come from
NEDRA:
To do those things or to create the list?
ELISE:
To do those things? Like, what is that in us?
NEDRA:
I think we have the tendency to want to show up as perfect humans, which is impossible. Humans are imperfect. And so in our attempts to be perceived as perfect, we will try to win arguments. We will try to have the last word because we want to leave the experience like I was right. I got it all together and really we do not. And that's hard to admit I don't have it all together. I need to get a t-shirt that says that. I do not have it all together. I need a lot of help. I require some attention. Please help me. When people ask me, how can I help you? I always try to have a little list. If you come to my barbecue, how can I help you? Can you get the cups out? Like I'm thinking of something. I don't want you to think like, oh, you have all of this together.
I do not. If this seems effortless, let me tell you all the ways in which I need more support, because it is so important that we don't try to appear perfect. It really leaves very little room for error, for humanness, for maybe getting a piece of something wrong. I am teachable, you know, I am teachable. So conversation and you have new information. I'm not gonna argue out of your opinion. I'm like, oh, okay. Things in the world change. I think about so many things that are different from even five years ago to, you know, to this year things change. And if we want to embrace that, perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about. We really have to allow ourselves to not know what we're talking about.
ELISE:
I loved that moment when I interviewed you on Instagram. This was a while ago, but you were like also just in that practice of asking for help, like let the bagger at the practice, like let the people who are being paid to help, help you let the baggers at the grocery store take your stuff to the car. Like there are lots of mechanisms for accepting help that we routinely ignore.
NEDRA:
I recently saw something about people saying that this generation of kids, we love to say this generation, right? The younger generation, they don't help their parents as much as we did. And I continued reading and they talked about how parents really shut down the desire for help. When a small kid who's five or so says, Hey, I wanna help. I wanna help you say, go sit. Now your help is getting out the way, right? It's not like, okay, let me get them a little bowl where they can, you know, fake eggs or, you know, it's like, I'm going to say, I don't need your help. I don't need your help with vacuuming. When I was a kid, I remember having toy vacuums. I remember having your own kitchen set. I remember my mother saying, no, you can do the dishes. I'll take the knives out, but you can do the dishes. So if we really want this level of support, we have to welcome it. We have to allow people to learn how to help us.
ELISE:
I really think Nedra is America’s therapist. If you don’t follow her on Instagram, I don’t know how she does it, it is an endles string of insights that apply to all of us. I wanted to leave you with her list of what healthy boundaries look like. Because if you’re anything like me, this is something that I struggle to identify. She writes: “Healthy boundaries look like: Being clear about your values. Listening to your own opinion. Sharing with others appropriately. Having a healthy vulnerabiliyt with people who have earned your trust. Being comfortable saying no. Being comfortable hearing no without taking it personally.” And then she talks about porous boundaries and rigid boundaries. Because sometimes people have so many boundaries that they’re unable to be in relationship. Rigid boundaries looks like: Never sharing, building walls, avoiding vulnerability, cutting people out, having high expectations of others, and enforcing strict rules. Whereas porous boudnaries looks like: Oversharing, co-dependency, enmeshment (lack of emotional separation between you and another person), inability to say no, people pleasing, depending on feedback from others, paralyzing fear of being rejected, and accepted mistreatment. I just want to go back to that earlier point that she made. In a healthy realationship it’s your job to create clarity, and that clarity is what saves relationships in the long run. And thinking that we’re doing other people a favor by disavowing ourselves is really a situation in which no one wins.