Richard Schwartz, PhD: Recovering Every Part of Ourselves
Dr. Richard Schwartz is the creator of Internal Family Systems, a transformative, evidence-based model of psychotherapy that de-pathologizes the multipart personality. Dr. Schwartz began his career as a systemic family therapist and academic in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Illinois at Chicago and later at Northwestern University. It was there that he worked with a number of clients who claimed to recognize that they had several components, or parts, to themselves. This discovery led him to develop Internal Family Systems, also known as IFS. Within his model, Dr. Schwartz argues that our consciousness, or personality, can be broken down into multiple parts, each with distinct characteristics that fall under three categories: exiles, managers, and firefighters. Exiles are the parts of us that experience anxiety, fear, or trauma—often when we’re very young. Our other parts begin to protect those exiles from being triggered by events and experiences. Managers do this by dictating how we interact with the external world and firefighters seek to protect us by pushing us toward distraction to numb our pain.
All of our inner parts contain valuable qualities, Dr. Schwartz tells us, but when they are left unattended, they may lead to damaging impulses, causing us to write them off as damaging in and of themselves. On the other hand, when our parts are acknowledged and their needs are addressed, a confidence and openness emerges—what Dr. Schwartz has come to call the Self. It is in this state of Self, that we can begin to heal all of our parts and become integrated and whole.
In our conversation today, Dr. Schwartz walks us through the basics of his model and then guides me through an IFS work session. This was very powerful for me. Because the concept sounds heady, I’m glad you can experience the model in action: I hope our work together inspires you to explore the profound awareness made accessible by IFS.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:
It is the nature of the mind to have multiple parts…3:30
Reconciling with your exiles…16:00
My IFS session…22:00
MORE FROM RICHARD SCHWARTZ:
No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model
Introduction to Internal Family Systems
You Are the One You've Been Waiting for: Applying Internal Family Systems to Intimate Relationships
WATCH: Dr. Richard Schwartz Explains Internal Family Systems (IFS)
TRANSCRIPT:
(Edited slightly for clarity.)
ELISE LOEHNEN:
Hi. How are you?
RICHARD SCHWARTZ:
I'm good.
ELISE:
Running around?
RICHARD:
Yeah. I just went over to see my new little week old, newest grandchild.
ELISE:
Oh my God.
RICHARD:
Yeah. Ran had to rush back.
ELISE:
Is that a first meeting?
RICHARD:
No, no I live nearby. So congrats on your own podcast.
ELISE:
Thank you. Thank you. It's nice to be with you again. When you're with your grandchild, are you guarding? Are you like no exiling of parts.
RICHARD:
<laugh> right. All your parts are welcome here little Hazel.
ELISE:
What is it? Hazel.
RICHARD:
Hazel. Yeah.
ELISE:
That's sweet. Congratulations. How many grandkids do you have?
RICHARD:
She's the third, although there's another one coming.
ELISE:
Oh, which one's your favorite, kidding.
RICHARD:
<laugh>
ELISE:
Depends on the day. <laugh>
RICHARD:
Right. This is being recorded.
ELISE:
You would never, I know. I know. Well, thanks for your time. Thanks for No Bad Parts too. I love your audible original, but it was really fun to read No Bad Parts and to have such an accessible guide to the whole system. And before you joined Phil and I were talking and I was like, I love IFS (Internal Family Systems) because it feels so complimentary to every other system, psychological system or spiritual belief system, I guess the only thing that's in conflict with is this idea that we only have one mind.
RICHARD:
That, and with the kind of prevailing idea that all you need to do is correct the irrational beliefs that your one mind has. So it doesn't fit that well with CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) actually.
ELISE:
Oh, interesting. When you encounter stuff like that, I know CBT is useful for some people, but do you feel like it's more of a, and we don't need to disparage it, but more of a crutch for like rutted thinking. And then do you want to get them into a process, a deeper process?
RICHARD:
Yeah. That's, that's the main thing. It doesn't go deep enough. It stays with managers really, basically. And if you don't get to exiles, then things aren't going to change.
ELISE:
That's interesting, actually. So within CBT, you're just coordinating your management team
RICHARD:
Pretty much.
ELISE:
Let's start there. And for people who are unfamiliar, will you tell us about exiles, managers, and firefighters?
RICHARD:
Yeah. So to do that, I'll go back 40 years when, it'll be 40 years this next year, when I was first learning from clients about what they were calling parts and I had no idea, but I just stayed open and learn from them that number one, it's the nature of the mind to have them, that what we call thinking is usually just conversations among them and that they have a lot of power inside of us and that because it's the nature of the mind they all have valuable qualities. You know, we wouldn't be born with stuff that wasn't good for us, but that trauma and what's called attachment injuries or bad parenting, forces them out of their naturally valuable states into roles that can be damaging. And then we mistake the damaging impulse for the part itself, even though it's just, you know, I come from a family therapy background. So family therapy's big insight was you can't take a kid out of a dysfunctional family because he's acting out. Just tell him to cut it out. You have to take a look at the family patterns that have him in this role and then change all that and release him from that role. So he doesn't have to protect himself anymore, he doesn't have to protect somebody in the family and then he'll be who he is designed to be turns out the same as true for these parts. And so that's a lot of, what IFS designed to do is, is to help these parts out of the roles they were forced into. So they can be who they're designed to be, which is always valuable.
So yeah, so as I was getting that from clients, I'm a systems thinker, so I'm trying to map the territory in the center world, just the way I did with families and the distinction that immediately leaped out was between parts that other systems would call inner children, which, you know, they're very, before they're hurt, they're delightful.They give us all kinds of joy, and imagination, and creativity, and playfulness and so on. But once they feel, once you have an experience that leaves you feeling worthless or terrified or hurt, they're the ones that take that in the most, because they're the most sensitive parts of you. And then they get stuck with these, what I call burdens of worthlessness or pain or terror. And now we don't want to be around them because they have the power to overwhelm us and make us feel all that again and bring us back into those scenes that they literally are living in still. And so we try to lock them away inside in inner basements and thinking we're just moving on from the memories, sensations, and emotions of the trauma. Not realizing that we're actually leaving in the dust, the parts of us, we love the most when they're not hurt, just because they got hurt. And then we tend to live our life cut off from all that, all those resources and live in fear of that. Getting triggered again, because if it gets triggered, it's like these flames of emotions destroy us. So other parts are then forced out of their naturally valuable states to become protectors so that those exiles don't get triggered and they stay contained. Some of those protectors take on manager roles. So they're trying to manage our external life. So no one gets close enough to hurt us again or so that we look good all the time and we don't get rejected or we perform at a very high level and we get a lot of accolades to counter the worthlessness. And so on. There are many, many different common manager roles.
So they're working all the time to keep us safe that way. And we still get triggered. And when that happens, it's like a big emergency for some parts, they feel like you're going to die if they don't do something to get you either higher than those flames of exile emotion or douse them with some substance or distract until they burn themselves out. So there's another set of protectors we call firefighters whose job it is to immediately go into action to impulsively, get you away from those emotions. And they don't care about the collateral damage to your body, to your relationships. They just think they got to do this or you're gonna die. And then our managers hate the firefighters because they take us out of control and the managers are trying to keep us in control. So there's these polarizations rampant through our system and all the while these exiles are just hurting and feel abandoned alone. And so if you don't get down there, then things like CBT aren't going do my too much for you.
ELISE:
And so firefighters, if we start there, that's when you see people sort of reacting out of pain or lashing out or maybe addiction or anything that might numb distract or project the pain.
RICHARD:
Exactly. Right. That's exactly right. Yeah.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
Yeah. Those are common firefighters.
ELISE:
Yeah. And then managers, I think I have a lot of managers when you were describing your body and how you sense when your managers are present and where they are in your body, your shoulders, your neck, your jaw.
RICHARD:
Yeah.
ELISE:
I could very much relate.
RICHARD:
Yeah. I mean, you know, all these parts at one time in our life were necessary. The problem is they still think they are necessary, the roles, but if you were to go to some of your managers and ask how old they thought you were, you'd get single digits most of the time. They still think you're a five year old kid who need to be protected in the way you did back then. And so yeah. Most of us are run by our managers, especially those of us who've made it this far and have some degree of success. And our firefighters, you know, are either done in secret or they they're done sporadically to take over when our managers get tired
ELISE:
And then beneath all of these different parts. There's the self that you write about so beautifully, this sort of essential animating energy itself that is imperturbable, whole never desecrated. Can you explain what that is? And is it our personality or is it more, more removed than that?
RICHARD:
Yeah. Our, our personality is the whole package of parts. What I'm calling the self is a kind of inner essence that's lies beneath all of that and is the big discovery of IFS. Not that it exists, because many spiritual traditions talk about something similar, but that it exists just beneath the surface of these parts. It could be accessed simply by getting them to open space inside very quickly. And that once it's accessed that people begin to heal themselves. So that's the big discovery of IFS. And I know I just stumbled onto that again almost 40 years ago where I'm again, applying family therapy ideas to this inner system that I'm discovering. And one family therapy technique is just to have two family members talk to each other directly who are polarized so that they learn they aren't what they thought and they start to get along.
So I would try to get a client to do that with some part that they didn't like, like the critic and listen to it instead of finding it. And as I'm doing that, I'm noticing all these other parts are jumping in and things are going south because now my client's angry at the critic, but I asked, could you get those parts to just let us finish this conversation just step out or relax until we're done. And people could do that. And when they did, it was like this other person popped out who knew how to relate to the critic in a open, calm, confident, even compassionate way. And the critic would drop its, you know, its extreme state and reveal what it was protecting and how much it needed love, like all the other parts. And so we could do something entirely different then.
And I would try the same technique with other clients where we would just get the parts that were interfering to relax in an open space. And it was like the same person would pop out with the same level of calm and confidence and curiosity and compassion and courage and clarity and creativity and connectedness. So those are what we call the eight C’s of self capital S Self leadership. And it turns out now 40 years later, thousands of clients later, and now thousands of people using this all over the world that that self is in everybody can't be damaged, knows how to heal, and is just beneath the surface of these parts, such that when they open space, it pops out automatically. And that is the big discovery of IFS.
ELISE:
And then the self works with those parts to show them that, I as 42 year old woman is capable of taking care of them and they can be reassigned or relaxed or do something else. And the exile can rejoin the team. And would the exile have a new role or would the exile just rest, just be loved?
RICHARD:
It depends on what it wants to do. So yeah, these protectors are like in family therapy, we would call them parentified children. All these parts they're pretty young. And some of them take on these parental roles of running your life like the managers we were talking about. And so as they come to see there is this other person in there, what I'm calling the self, who isn't so young and actually could handle the outside world much better than they can, then they relax and they can start figuring out who they really are and get into their own new roles. And then allow us, from the self to go to your exiles, which would be to focus on the pain, for example, that the protectors were trying to contain. And when you get to an exile often, you'll see yourself as a child. Not always. And it turns out these exiles in order to heal in or for them to transform, they need about four different things. First they need for you to make a connection so that they trust you. Because many exiles are angry. They feel abandoned by you. When we first meet them, they turn their backs on you and won't talk to you. So we need to spend some time helping that little girl, including apologies for how you did abandon her, help her come to trust that you do care that you're somebody who can help her. And then when that's in place, mainly these exiles need you to get what happened to them in the past, where there's stock and how bad it is, how bad where they're stuck is now. So you become a compassionate witness to your own history and some people get very emotional while they're doing that. And we do that until that little girl says, okay, I think you finally get what happened and how bad it was. And, but that's not the end because she still lives back there.
So I would say to you, Elise, I want you to go into that scene and be with her and the way she needed somebody at the time, and you wouldn't see yourself, you would actually just see the girl you'd be back in whatever scene it was. And I might even say, ask her what she wants you to do for her back there. And you know, people say you can't change the past what happened happened, but in this inner world, you can literally change the experience of the past by having you stand up to your mother or whatever she needed you to do. And then when she's ready, take her out of that time to a safe place, which is often the present just to be with you, but it could be a fantasy place and make sure she trusts that she never has to go back there. And then I would have you ask her if she's ready to unload the feelings of belief she got back there and when these exiles really trust they're safe and they don't have to go back, usually they're willing to what we call unburden, the extreme beliefs and emotions they got in those seeds. And there's a little process to where we send them out of your system. And the little girl immediately feels much lighter, wants to play. And so that would be healing the exile. And then once an exile's healed, we bring in the protectors to see that they don't have to protect her anymore and they're freed up to do what they would rather do.
ELISE:
Yeah, I haven't done full IFS, but you know, we've talked about this in the past, the correlation between IFS and parts work and deep MDMA therapy, which I have done. And I think you give us an early work, it's like in 70% of those sessions people just spontaneously start working with parts, something like that, in that early data. And that was my experience. I wouldn't have had those words, but I did it three times. And much of it was being with myself as a little child. I would say in being with myself that it was generalized feelings, I wasn't necessarily, I did revisit one event a lot. Is it always a singular event or is it sometimes just a general feeling?
RICHARD:
It's often a whole time period, you know, it's not one incident necessarily, but it's the whole series of events that took place during several years maybe. And so you're just kind of feeling the feelings more than seeing something, some specific trauma.
ELISE:
Okay. Yeah, that resonates, as like a generalized experience of myself that I was having as an adult, not necessarily cognitive dissonance, but seeing myself as a child, what I was experiencing and that what wasn't acknowledged in this case, by my parents, nothing bad, but I wasn't really taught, what I was feeling was disavowed, or wasn't recognized, or was shamed. And not haunted me, it was this like, attracting any sort of attention was harmful, negative, distasteful. And I did attract a lot of attention. I was a charismatic child. And so it was that deep shaming of that self, fear of being seen. That was like the group of feelings, but it wasn't attached to any specific inciting event, if that makes sense.
RICHARD:
Yeah. You know, I mentioned earlier that we exile these parts because they get traumatized, but that's the other reason we'll exile parts is because our families didn't like them. So, we felt like we had to survive in our family, we had to lock them away too. So that would be the category of exiles that you had more.
ELISE:
Okay. And then in that instance, my managers or firefighters would be proactively guarding against any instance where I might be drawing too much attention to myself or being too visible and reminding me of its danger, is that accurate?
RICHARD:
That's accurate. A lot of times the managers will imitate your parents, they'll sound like your mother's voice or something, in a shaming way. Because they think that's what you listen to and that'll keep those exiles locked away.
ELISE:
Yeah. And there are lots of exercises in the book. Obviously the best thing is to find an IFS therapist and you guys train therapists all over the world to work with you. But when I worked with parts, the thing that I'm also grateful to is my MDMA experiences establishing a somatic relationship with my body where I feel like I'm able to talk to my body. Or like you mentioned the managers in your shoulders, I talk to the pain in my jaw all the time. How do you know who you're talking to? Because sometimes I'm convinced it's myself. Sometimes I doubt it's an exile, but the manager or the firefighter is so right.
RICHARD:
What do you mean right?
ELISE:
Their concerns or their anger. We'll start with anger because that's what I store in my jaw, their anger is so valid and so right. That I can't dismiss it. I think that they're right. And I need to be living by how they're admonishing me. Does that make sense?
RICHARD:
Oh, they're angry at you?
ELISE:
Oh yeah.
RICHARD:
Oh, okay. That just means you have other parts that buy into that, what they're saying.
ELISE:
But I buy into what they're saying?
RICHARD:
Oh, that's not you that's that's other parts.
ELISE:
Okay. That's not me?
RICHARD:
No. Yourself wouldn't buy into what they're saying.
ELISE:
It wouldn't, okay. So then, you know, in that instance, I know I'm working with a manager who's protecting an exile.
RICHARD:
Exactly. Right.
ELISE:
Okay. And then I just need to stay with those managers and hear them and process.
RICHARD:
You want to do a piece of work?
ELISE:
Sure.
RICHARD:
Okay.
ELISE:
But I don't know if I know how to do it. Right? So will you guide me through it?
RICHARD:
Of course I will.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
You want to start with that feeling in your jaw?
ELISE:
Yeah.
RICHARD:
Okay. You ready?
ELISE:
Yeah. Do I close my eyes?
RICHARD:
Yes. So it's pain, you said, right?
ELISE:
<affirmative>
RICHARD:
Focus on the pain in your jaw.
ELISE:
Yeah.
RICHARD:
And tell me how you feel toward it.
ELISE:
I feel, I recognize both rage and also sadness and this like holding a dam. That's the sensation, exhaustion.
RICHARD:
Yeah. Okay. And so those could be three different parts, but as you notice those feelings, how do you feel toward the parts that carry those feelings? In other words, are you open to getting to know them or do you want to get away from them? Or how are you feeling toward them?
ELISE:
I am feeling compassionate towards them, but I actually don't know how to help them.
RICHARD:
Yeah. But I do. So the part that does says you don't know how to, we're gonna ask that one to give us the space to help them.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
So see if that part can step back a little bit.
ELISE:
It's arguing,
RICHARD:
What's it saying?
ELISE:
It's saying like the only way for me to help them is to stop speaking
RICHARD:
Why is that going to help them? Is it a part that doesn't want you to show off or something? Is that the whole?
ELISE:
I think it's a part that feels like I get myself into trouble. I'm going toget myself into trouble and I just need to stop speaking.
RICHARD:
Okay. So let's work with it first then because we need its permission to do any of this. So find that one in your body.
ELISE:
So much anxiety.
RICHARD:
Where is that?
ELISE:
Do you feel in the back of my throat? Just dread and anxiety.
RICHARD:
Yeah. And how do you feel toward this part? That carries so much anxiety.
ELISE:
Oh, compassionate.
RICHARD:
So let it know and see how it reacts to your compassion.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
How does it react?
ELISE:
It appreciates that. Don't like stand down, but it appreciates, it appreciates acknowledgement that I know it's hard.
RICHARD:
Yeah. We're not asking it to stand down right now.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
We just want to get to know it better.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
And just let it know. We get that. It's really scared. You're not going to get in big trouble, if you keep going, if you keep your mouth open.
ELISE:
There's just a part of me like this impatient part of me that is also incredibly angry at being silenced, and it's full of expletives.
RICHARD:
Right. So let it know it has to wait its turn.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
We first want to work with this really scared one.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
With the anxiety, and let that one know that we're not going do anything without its permission.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
It's the boss.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
How does it react to hearing that?
ELISE:
It's the trust.
RICHARD:
Okay, good. Well, ask it more about what kind of trouble it's afraid you'll get into or what its fears are.
ELISE:
All that I can't control.
RICHARD:
What comes out, or?
ELISE:
It's not that it has fear of me so much as like the world's reaction to me. Does that make sense?
RICHARD:
Totally makes sense. Yeah. I mean, this is a public podcast, it's got a point.
ELISE:
It has a point. Yes, exactly. I can't disagree with it.
RICHARD:
So let it know that, that I get the point too. And that's why we're not going to do anything without its permission.
ELISE:
Okay. All right.
RICHARD:
Now also let it know that if it were to give us permission and we went back to the parts we started with, you don't have to disclose what they tell you.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
To actually help them.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
So if it's worried about you saying something negative about somebody and that coming back to bite you, you don't have to tell us.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
It's for you to know
ELISE:
That's calming.
RICHARD:
Okay. And also let it know that if it does let us go back, there is probably some healing we can do, so it's not so chaotic in there and you may not have this pain in your jaw so much.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
And it can be freed up to not have to, you know, keep everything under control so much.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
See how it reacts to all that.
ELISE:
It's laughing. Cause it's like, I don't have that much control. That's the problem.
RICHARD:
Alright. It's got a point there too, but I guess what I'd say is it doesn't have to live in this kind of anxiety constantly.
ELISE:
Yes.
RICHARD:
If we were able to heal some of this.
ELISE:
Agree, it agrees and it doesn't want to do this I think it would like to give this up.
RICHARD:
Yeah. Another question for it is if we could pull this off and it was freed from this role, what might it like to do instead inside of you? If it didn't have to be this anxious naysayer.
ELISE:
It wants to be on the discernment team. It wants to be upfront, not worried retroactively.
RICHARD:
That's perfect. That's perfect. It wants to suss out what actually is dangerous and give you information and then let you decide.
ELISE:
Yes.
RICHARD:
So tell that that's where we're headed. We're gonna free it for that role.
ELISE:
It's excited.
RICHARD:
Okay, good. So it does give us permission. Alright. So let's go back to your jaw and the parts that are using your jaw. I know, I remember there was anger and sadness. And how do you feel now about getting to know these parts?
ELISE:
I need to work with my sadness.
RICHARD:
Okay.
ELISE:
That's the most present.
RICHARD:
And where do you find it in your body or around your body?
ELISE:
It's also in my jaws, in my eyes. Back of my throat.
RICHARD:
How do you feel toward it?
ELISE:
Oh, like so loving.
RICHARD:
Yeah. Let it know you love it.
ELISE:
Yeah.
RICHARD:
See how it reacts to your love.
ELISE:
There's relief there. But, this is weird, but it also likes its job.
RICHARD:
And what is it like about it?
ELISE:
It likes the depth of the feeling it likes holding. It feels like it's holding something that's darker and heavier, but important. It wants to remind me that sadness is important too.
RICHARD:
Okay. Does that make sense?
ELISE:
Yeah.
RICHARD:
Go ahead. Yeah. So tell it that, that makes sense. We're not going to make it do anything. It doesn't want to, we just want to get to know it for a little while.
ELISE:
Yeah. It just feels, it wants to continue to feel deeply. That's the part that's contributing here. That it does it, it's this like,deep, deep desire to be understood. And known and it feels misunderstood.
RICHARD:
Right. So let it know. That's why we're with it now. Because we want to understand it. This is its chance to feel understood rather than misunderstood. And just see what it wants you to understand. Just ask and again, you, you can share what feels right or not it's up to you, what you share.
ELISE:
That it's good.
RICHARD:
That the sad part is good?
ELISE:
Yeah. That it's this part is like not pure, but it wants to help. It wants to it's that sort of like, but not matter it doesn't, it's not that it wants to matter, but it's this, this, like I just mean, well, I mean, well,
RICHARD:
So let it know you get that
ELISE:
Mm-hmm.
RICHARD:
And see how it reacts to being appreciated for that.
ELISE:
It likes the attention.
RICHARD:
And again, we're just gonna stay open it's if there's anything else it wants you to know about itself.
ELISE:
Just like I don't visit.
RICHARD:
Yeah. You try to stay away from it, right?
ELISE:
Yeah. Maybe to apologize to it for.
RICHARD:
Yeah. I was going to say maybe you can apologize to it. You've allowed these other parts to keep you away from it.
ELISE:
<affirmative>
RICHARD:
Cause you didn't really understand it.
ELISE:
Yeah. And it's saying I deserve to feel bad sometimes. Like it's okay to feel bad. And to want attention or feeling bad. It's okay.
RICHARD:
Yeah. So let it know that in your family it wasn't okay. And you're sorry about that. It wasn't fair, but you're going to start to treat it differently now.
ELISE:
Yeah. It doesn't like the name self-pitting.
RICHARD:
Yeah. That's that's what they would call it.
ELISE:
Not into it.
RICHARD:
No. So again, you can apologize for shaming it that way. Because some part of you picked up on that and has been doing that to it.
ELISE:
Mm-hmm <affirmative>
RICHARD:
And see if it'll accept your apology.
ELISE:
It will accept my apology. It doesn't trust that I know actually how to stay with it, I broke my neck two months ago and I'm fine. I fell up a horse and I broke my neck and this part but I'm okay. But this is what this part is mad at me about.
RICHARD:
To say you're fine?
ELISE:
I'm fine. It's like, “you're not, stop.”
RICHARD:
Yeah. You're not fine if you break your neck two months ago. So let it know. You're going start listening to it more and I'm here to help you do that.
ELISE:
Okay. Yeah. I mean, I have definitely have more work to do with this part. Yeah. Has a lot to say.
RICHARD:
Yeah. Good. So should we work though first with the parts that don't like it, and call it names, and keep you from it? See if it's up for letting us do that.
ELISE:
Yeah.
RICHARD:
Alright. So then focus on the part that, call it self pity and all that, and find that one in your body, around your body.
ELISE:
It's like a wave of nausea. It's the back of my throat. This part’s so nasty.
RICHARD:
How do you feel toward it? As you see it?
ELISE:
I'm scared of this part.
RICHARD:
Alright. But let's ask all the ones who are scared of it to go into a safe waiting room while we deal with it. Cause it has no power if you're not afraid of it.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
So just see if the scared ones will give us a break for a little while.
ELISE:
Yeah.
RICHARD:
How do you feel toward it now?
ELISE:
Calm.
RICHARD:
So, alright. So ask why it's so nasty to you and see what it says.
ELISE:
This is the part that feels like when I ask for attention or seek attention or ask for things, I get bad things, I get in trouble.
RICHARD:
Okay. So it's really just trying to protect you.
ELISE:
Yeah it’s angry, but yes.
RICHARD:
Yeah. Let it know that that was true in your family and that it did have to protect you this way back then, but ask it how old it thinks you are
ELISE:
Eight.
RICHARD:
Yeah. So let it know you're not eight anymore. You don't live with those people. I don't assume. I assume you don't and you can handle more than you could back then and just see how it reacts.
ELISE:
It's showing me, this is like the scene that I worked with in MDMA and it's showing it to me a scene of, sorry, trigger. I mean, I don't know exactly what happened, but there was a molestation of a friend of a family friend. And so that's what it's, it's bringing me to. Okay. And I've done a lot of work on this.
RICHARD:
Don't worry about that. So, okay. How old are you in that scene?
ELISE:
I want to say now eight. Eight or nine.
RICHARD:
Got it. Alright. So are you up for really getting what that was like for this girl?
ELISE:
Yeah.
RICHARD:
All right. So tell her you're ready to really feel and see and sense everything she wants you to about what that was like for her and just stay with it even though it's painful.
ELISE:
Yeah. I mean, I feel so bad for her.
RICHARD:
Yeah. Good. Keep letting her know that.
ELISE:
Yeah.
RICHARD:
And just see if she feels like you're getting this or if there's more, she wants you to get about it.
ELISE:
She really liked the attention until she didn't.
RICHARD:
Right. That's right. That's right. Just stay with that. That totally makes sense that she would like this guy's attention and then he turned on her.
ELISE:
She's like, I thinks she's thinks she is old enough to handle this, or that she is responsible.
RICHARD:
Just stay with that. Everything about it.
ELISE:
Yeah. And he's making her feel responsible.
RICHARD:
Yeah. That it was her fault
ELISE:
Her fault, irresistible, love.
RICHARD:
Yeah. Yeah. Just stay with it though. Let her know you can understand why she would take in all that. We're not going to correct it yet. We're just going to get everything about it for her.
ELISE:
And then there's this feeling of betrayal because nobody noticed.
RICHARD:
Okay. And she didn't tell anybody?
ELISE:
Mm-hmm
RICHARD:
So she didn't feel protected either.
ELISE:
Mm-hmm
RICHARD:
Felt all alone with it.
ELISE:
That she should be able to handle it.
RICHARD:
Yeah. So see if she's feeling like you're really getting this now or if there's anything more.
ELISE:
No, I think she thinks, I understand.
RICHARD:
Just ask her. Don't think, just ask her and wait for the answer
ELISE:
She thinks I understand. And, she doesn't trust the world.
RICHARD:
Yeah, of course. But tell her we're going fix all that.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
But she does feel like you get it now.
ELISE:
Mm-hmm
RICHARD:
Okay. Good. Alright, Elise, so I want you to go into that scene and be there with her and the way she needed somebody. And just tell me when you're there with her.
ELISE:
Mm-hmm.
RICHARD:
Okay. And how are you being with her?
ELISE:
I'm holding her, protecting her, putting her behind me.
RICHARD:
Good. It's really good. And ask if there's anything else she wants you to do for her back there before we take her to a good place.
ELISE:
No,
RICHARD:
She's just ready to go.
ELISE:
She just wants out of there.
RICHARD:
Alright. So let's take her, could be to your house there in the present or it could be a fantasy place wherever she wants to go.
ELISE:
Here. She wants to be with me.
RICHARD:
Alright. So just tell me when she's there with you.
ELISE:
She's here.
RICHARD:
Okay. Good. How is she reacting to being with you now and not back there?
ELISE:
Happy.
RICHARD:
Good. And let her know she never has to go back there now and she's not going to be alone anymore. Cause you're going to be with her this way.
ELISE:
Yeah.
RICHARD:
How is she reacting to that? Yeah. Good. And ask her, given that if she's ready to unload the feelings and belief she got from that time.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
Where does she carry all that in her body or on her body?
ELISE:
In her chest.
RICHARD:
And what would she like to give it all up to? Light water, fire, wind earth. Anything else?
ELISE:
Light.
RICHARD:
Alright. Bring in the light and have it shine on her. Just tell me when she's in the light. Let all that out of her chest now and let the light take it away. There's no need to carry any of that anymore.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
Is it gone?
ELISE:
Mm-hmm
RICHARD:
How's she doing now without it?
ELISE:
She's good. I'm sweating, but she's good.
RICHARD:
And tell her now, if she'd like to, she can invite qualities into her body and you can just see what comes into her now.
ELISE:
Wow…
RICHARD:
What's happening?
ELISE:
Oh, it's just this lack of self consciousness, like this energy of playing and freedom.
RICHARD:
That's great.
ELISE:
Ugh. That's what I think that that energy is.
RICHARD:
Exactly.
ELISE:
Wow.
RICHARD:
So how does she seem now?
ELISE:
So much lighter?
RICHARD:
Yeah. So let's bring in all these parts that we're trying to, you know, keep you from shining. And keep her held down just so they can see how she's doing now. Just see how they react.
ELISE:
It's funny. It's like blinding.
RICHARD:
The light from her is blinding or what's blinding?
ELISE:
Mm-hmm
RICHARD:
Okay. Do you have a sense of how they're reacting though?
ELISE:
I think they're pleased. I think they're surprised.
RICHARD:
Just ask them.
ELISE:
Okay. Relief.
RICHARD:
Yeah. And let them know there might be other parts that still need to be healed, but this was a big one and they can relax about this.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
And see if they are ready to take on new roles or if they want to wait till you've done the rest of it.
ELISE:
Yeah. They're tired.
RICHARD:
Yeah. Good.
ELISE:
They just want to relax. Is that okay?
RICHARD:
Totally. Yeah. They can trust you. Just, they all think you're young, too. So just let them all know how old you are and how much they can trust you more than they thought, they can all just rest. They've been working their asses off.
ELISE:
Yeah. Oh my God.
RICHARD:
And then before we stop, let’s go back to that original sad one and see how it's reacted to this.
ELISE:
It feels, less full, like calm, not like it has capacity.
RICHARD:
Yeah. And let it know that because of this work, it'll be a lot easier for you to spend time with it.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
And not try to get away from that.
ELISE:
Yeah. And it's request is like, I don't want to be a damn, like I don't need to like be bursting
RICHARD:
That's right.
ELISE:
Okay.
RICHARD:
And then go back finally to your jaw and see how it's doing.
ELISE:
Much better.
RICHARD:
Okay.
ELISE:
It's not, there's some more stuff in there, but yeah.
RICHARD:
That's right.
ELISE:
Yeah.
RICHARD:
So does that feel complete for now?
ELISE:
Yeah. Thank you.
RICHARD:
You're welcome. It was a great example of the process much better than if I was talking about it.
ELISE:
Oh my God. Thank you.
RICHARD:
You're welcome. Thank you.
ELISE:
Oh, no, that felt like a big, final part for her.
RICHARD:
Yeah. You know, you did some witnessing of her through the MDMA, but she was still living back there.
ELISE:
Yeah. I didn't even know she was there until I did MDMA.
RICHARD:
Because she didn't have any memory of it or because, is that true?
ELISE:
I had a memory of this guy at a lake party, maybe a summer after, like an unsettling experience on an inner tube that I've always been conscious of where like, he just wanted to like be with me and ride this inner tube, waiting for someone to notice. That I've always been aware of. And I think I was older, year or two older, but I knew, I guess on some level, I knew that was attached to something else. It wasn't our first encounter. But then when I did the MDMA, I just did it to experience it so I could talk about it on TV, as one does. And then I didn't really expect anything from my session and then it was immediately like, it was present. And we worked with that for a long time.
RICHARD:
And that's, you know, that's the effect of these psychedelic medicines, for whatever reason your managers go to sleep or go offline, you access a huge amount of self and then all these exiles feel the invitation and they come and tell you their stories.
ELISE:
Yes, exactly. That was my experience. And then again, I don't know exactly what happened and I don't know that I need to.
RICHARD:
Well, that's up to her. I mean, if she needs you to get more details, then you need to go back. But she may not.
ELISE:
Okay. IFS, people. But I'm glad we did that. Cause I think it can sound, I mean, you talk about it as the pernicious nature of the mono mind and this idea that we suddenly think that we're schizophrenic. Right? But of course we're having inner conversations all the time.
RICHARD:
That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. And we're getting these, you know, symptoms in our bodies, like your pain in your jaw and medicine is designed to kill the messenger rather than listen to the message.
ELISE:
Right. And if you have smart managers and, and managers who have been with you for a long time, they're really good at the rationalization. Like I feel like I'm really good at surface level without actually being with the feeling.
RICHARD:
That's right.
ELISE:
Yeah. Right.
RICHARD:
But, but you went for it today. I was really impressed that.
ELISE:
Oh, thank you. Thanks for doing that with me. And obviously people can read these books, they can do these exercises, but I don't think anything is equivalent to actually doing it. Right?
RICHARD:
Yeah. No, that's totally right. I mean some people can do what we just did on their own, but not many.
ELISE:
Yeah. Well, I'd imagine too, if you work with the therapist and you start learning it maybe becomes easier. But even though I think if you have adept managers, they can jump in there. Like those moments when I tell you what they're thinking.
RICHARD:
That's right. Exactly. Especially that thinking manager. I'm always listening when I ask you what they’re saying. I think it's saying, that's a dead giveaway that there's this thinking part that's come in to do the talking.
ELISE:
Yeah, I love those. And before we go and I know we only have four minutes, but the other reason that I love this work is that, and you talk about this as a micro to macro, right? Like you see families acting out, like you see kids acting out on behalf of their parents, et cetera. But we also see this socially. And I think that part of the work is so important. The work that you do with activists who typically have a lot of exiles, right? A lot of trauma, and the way that our firefighters, our protectors engage with other people's protectors, you call it a contagion. Can you just quickly take us through that?
RICHARD:
With activists you mean?
ELISE:
Yeah. And what we're seeing on a geopolitical level.
RICHARD:
Okay.
ELISE:
I know it's a big question. Right?
RICHARD:
So, you know, one way to think of it is, I talked about exiles and protectors and if you think of our country, for example, as a person we've never had more exiles because I saw statist the other day that 60% of the population are living paycheck to paycheck. There's people are desperately hurting. And when any system has a lot of exiles with a lot of pain, you're going to have very extreme protectors. And so you can see the polarization in our political system and also how many extreme symptoms there are in the population and how much violence and all of that. And how little self is around, there's very little self to be found. And so that's character that characterizes any, any highly exiled system. And so the, the goal of ifs at that level is really just to bring forth more self energy in leaders. And so we're working, like you said, with political activists, we're working, uh, with, uh, executive coaches and, and we're just trying to bring more self energy to leadership in this country. And, uh, so anyway, that's the short version.
ELISE:
Well, it's, it's a really powerful idea and I think we can, all, we can all recognize when our, those triggered parts of ourselves, those protectors start lashing out and triggering other people's parts and it's a collision disaster. Um, well thank you for your time. Thank you for your work and thank you for the therapy. <laugh>
RICHARD:
You're welcome. Thank you for demonstrating it. And, uh, yeah, I was very impressed with how much your parts let us do so. Oh, and it's important to keep it going. So on a daily basis, now you need to check in with her and make sure she's still living with you there and okay. And, uh, do that for a month or so. And it'll all be, it'll all stick.
ELISE:
Okay. Thank you. I will do that.
RICHARD:
Great to see you again, please.
ELISE:
You too. I'll speak to you soon.
RICHARD:
Sounds good.
ELISE:
Well that was intense and unplanned, but thank you to the those of you who stayed with me through that. And hopefully it gives you a better idea of IFS, which can be quite heady, but is actually quite simple; which is how do you go out, how you find those little children inside and bring them home? And, as mentioned, I did do MDMA therapeutically, I did it three times, it’s not yet legal but hopefully soon. It’s incredibly powerful, particularly for people who have PTSD, the work with vets in particular is stunning, lifesaving. MAPS is the place to go to donate for this research. In terms of what we touched on the very end, this idea of bringing more self to leadership, it’s so important because, as he talks about in No Bad Parts, which is his book, he talks about this idea of contagion, or resonance, he writes: “Protector parts are contagious in the sense that when one member of the system, particularly the leader, is blended with the protector part, it often activates protectors of others and the culture of the organization becomes permeated with that protective energy. Correspondingly, self-led people bring out the selves of those around them, as when one vibrating tuning fork sets off another one at a distance, the presence of self in a system helps protectors relax and elicit self through out the organization.” And so he talks about this in the context of politics, it works in every conceivable scale, that the more we unburden ourselves, the more ourselves can come forward and lead. Alright, this was a heavy one, but thank you for listening.
