Roshi Joan Halifax: Standing at the Edge
My guest today is the brilliant Joan Halifax—a Buddhist teacher, Zen priest, anthropologist, and author of many books, including Being with Dying and Standing at the Edge. The founder, Abbot, and Head Teacher of Upaya Zen Center, a Buddhist Monastery in Santa Fe, New Mexico, Joan has dedicated her life’s work to engaged and applied Buddhism, with a particular emphasis on end-of-life care.
Today, she shares with us wisdom gleaned from Zen traditions, mindfulness practices, and the Buddhist approach to death; drawing from her groundbreaking research on compassion and decades of experience working with the dying and their caregivers all the while. As our current reality pushes us all to the existential exploration of suffering, altruism, and meaning, Joan’s words become an exceptionally valuable source of inspiration, guiding us to the edges of our human experience in order to discover wise hope, truth, and a fuller realization of what it is to be alive.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:
Pathological altruism…16:53
Serving with our self, not our strength…23:20
Compassion is adaptive…30:00
MORE FROM JOAN HALIFAX:
Standing at the Edge: Finding Freedom Where Fear and Courage Meet
Being with Dying: Cultivating Compassion and Fearlessness in the Face of Death
Explore JOAN'S WEBSITE
Follow her on INSTAGRAM and TWITTER
TRANSCRIPT:
(Edited slightly for clarity.)
ELISE LOEHNEN: I feel like everything that you write about is essential and it's one of the things that I talk about a lot on this podcast is our aversion for death keeps us from really living and it's not wise, right, it's half living, I think when we live clenched in fear. And do you feel like that's changed? I mean, going through this pandemic and the way that all of us have been confronted with mortality, do you think, do you see it changing or evolving?
ROSHI JOAN HALIFAX: You know, it's a very interesting question that you're asking. I think the pandemic has brought attention to the limitations in our healthcare system, to the truth of our mortality, to utter surprise that very difficult circumstances can befall us in a moment who, I mean, whoever anticipated, some people anticipated a pandemic happening, but you know, in general, we had no idea. It was like a bolt out of the blue. And I think that the bolt out of the blueness of it, combined with social isolation, combined with the cracks in our medical system, really put many of us into a kind of existential exploration of what is our life about. What is meaningful for us? How do I really want to spend my time? Who is important to me? What is important to me? Who must I forgive? To whom I must I share my love? Who do I want to be with me as I'm dying? You know, these very profound existential and psychosocial questions. In a way it's been a kind of mixed blessing. So much grief we're talking about, just the number of deaths as a result of the pandemic is just staggering. Not only in our country at the United States, but all over the world. And how do you hold both the grief of loss of life of those close to you, but also the global grief, and how do you also hold the grief of the loss of a sense of security, which was
ELISE: Exactly.
JOAN: So, you know, I think we've learned, many of us have learned so much about ourselves and each other as a result of the pandemic and you know, it's not separate either from the climate catastrophe. You know, the relationship between the two is, in terms of the deeper questions that we're living with at this time or the war in Ukraine. These are events in an era of radical change in our society. And do we have the wherewithal, the resilience, the internal stability to turn toward the truth of suffering as it is, and to allow our compassion to be fully deployed or engaged, manifested.
ELISE: Yeah, I do. I’m nodding profusely to everything that you're saying, and I also think that in time Covid, even as much as many of us can't agree on the facts of it, or the truth of it, is one of the first moments, at least in my life, where we have a universal context for or frame for a conversation.
You know, we all went through something together and true of climate as well, although I think that we're led to believe who are deniers, I think most people live on the spectrum of some alarm to extreme alarm. I feel like Covid is an opportunity in some ways to have a conversation where we're all talking about the same thing.
JOAN: Yeah, I think you're, you're right, and in a way you're unfortunately right, because Covid, it was a short term catastrophe, relatively speaking, and it's not over yet. People are still dying of covid, people are still getting sick from Covid but the longer term view brings us right to the question of our climate catastrophe and not just climate refugees, which are pouring out of the you know, equatorial countries from, you know, the Americas and Africa and, around the Asian Gulf. But it's, you know, it's an something that will affect the most privileged. There's just, you know, you can maybe get on a spaceship and go to Mars. It just doesn't look very appealing to me. I live in the Southwest. And if this is the case then, you know, taking care of, um, where we are, our nest, our earth, and we do have the opportunity at this time. Just like, palliative medicine, palliative care can extend life. We can actually dial down some of the feedback loops that have, you know, are in process around, water issues in particular, whether it’s the melting of the poles or the desertification in various parts of the world. We we can change this. We can.
ELISE: I agree. I agree. And it's interesting. I mean, we'll move to Standing at the Edge, cause I definitely wanna talk about toxic altruism and so many of those, the dualities that you set up there are really beautiful. But first, you know, thinking of Being with Dying, for example, this is, I think for a lot of people, maybe the first time in their lives that they contemplated their own mortality. Right. Those nine contemplations are so stunning and for people who are listening and Being with Dying, which is, I grew up with Ira Byock’s daughters, by the way. We went to to school together. But the nine contemplations, which are, you know, my lifespan is ever decreasing. All of us will die sooner or later. Death comes, whether or not I am prepared. And the exercises that you do with those are really stunning. But I do think it was the first time for many people, particularly younger people, to grapple with that. And it's difficult, really hard work, actually, the hardest.
JOAN: Yeah, I completely agree. And those nine contemplations that you've just shared, Elise, are, you know, they're completely obvious, you know, you know, death is inevitable. Okay. Well, yeah, that's right. And at the moment of our death, our bodies no help to us. That's number nine. Oh yeah, that's right.
ELISE: My loved ones cannot save me, correct.
JOAN: Exactly. And all of the stuff that I've got in my storage locker can't either. So, you know, it really comes down to what it means to have integrity, to have a strong moral character, you know, to meet a world with courage and sensitivity, with strength and with tenderness. You know, what it means to be a human being and aware of the suffering and the joys of what are present in our life and in the lives of others. You know, often I think about, so often it’s, this interview's happening on International Women's Day. And it'll probably be aired at another time, but it's for me, just thinking about a young woman like Malala, you know, who took a bullet to the head in her great dedication to bring education to women in her culture, girls in her culture. And it really has to do with, how aligned are we with our deepest values. Whether it's Malala's, you know, profound inspiration to all of us of her courage and her commitment, but also, you know, how we have worked the edge of this pandemic so that it has not permanently crushed us as an individual, but actually built a kind of strength of character because we've turned toward our lives in a much more reflective way. Come to value our relationships, come to cherish this earth and come to deep appreciation for the value of community, including the community of all beings.
ELISE: Beautiful, and I think that is the greatest gift of standing at the edge too. This is true of everything that we're talking about and everything having to do with covid, that the two sides of it, right? The shadow side, the grief, the loss of life, the devastation, and then also a collective pause, right?Many, many of my friends experience both sides and look at this time with fondness as dark as it is, right? As a moment when they recalibrated, got in touch with their values, realigned with their integrity, and are living in a different way. Hopefully we can hold on to some of those strands as we move forward. But within the edge states, altruism, empathy, integrity, respect, engagement, these are the five that you explore. All venerable beautiful ideas, right? But as people, I think we get so entranced with the goodness, quote unquote, or positivity or like our own valor in the ways that we embrace these ideas that we miss how complex they are, the shadow side. Your book was such a relief to me because, I think we use these words, right? Like, and we can go in and with this, like, I'm fixing, or I'm donating, or I'm full of altruism. Don't come at me. I am protected by this instinct. So can you talk about this, like the nuance, the duality of these ideas?
JOAN: Yeah, so you know, probably some of the listeners know I've been in the end of life care field for many decades, starting in the early 1970s. An then in the nineties, in addition to my work with dying people and clinicians, I began to also work in the prison system on death row and maximum security as a volunteer and throughout these decades of sitting in the char grounds of our society, I experienced a lot, including a lot of failure. You know, I had moments of just complete and utter burnout. I had moments where, I think I was reenacting my mother’s meme of caricature of altruism and so forth. And I also had many moments of empathic distress. And then, you know, with the years of work with people who are engaged in coming alongside people and situations of intense suffering. You know, I've heard a lot and I wanted to, number one, was to somehow identify the series of qualities that are really important to our human experience, and you name them, you know, it's altruism, empathy respect integrity and engagement. And also, what I learned from myself, my own experience and also from others, is that each of these qualities, which are absolutely essential for us as humans to live by, to live with, to foster, to generate, that each of these qualities has a shadow aspect that is so damaging. And I knew it personally.
So there's nothing in the book I probably haven't experienced myself, but boy have I heard it in a dramatic way in the lives of others.
JOAN: And I also, Elise, was very interested in how compassion, as I began to map out the valences, the aspects of compassion, how in fact it was the pivot, or it was the very platform where the shadow side of these important virtuous processes in our human life could be transformed out of the toxic expression into the good healthy expressions. So that's the basic premise. You know, in the book, it's a deep dive into altruism, you know, what we do as caring individuals to benefit others, and so forth. But when it's coming out of ego or identity, it becomes pathological altruism, you know, when we harm ourselves excessively, when we disempower others, when we damage our institution, when we do this, you know, we're altruistic to gain social merit, you know, that's all pathological altruism and activating compassion transforms it, for example.
ELISE: Can you talk a little bit more about that? And I think anyone who's listening this idea of pathological altruism, we've all seen it and experienced it, right? Like, particularly we're living in such a performative time. And I think a lot of us have gotten really important lessons in what it is to actually be an ally or offer support rather than fixing or you know, what are you doing this for? Are you doing this so that you feel good? Or are you doing this out of a completely egoless, unselfish gesture? So how is that transformed? Is it just the checking of one's self and one's intention?
JOAN: I think there are a number of ways that we move into action that’s characterized by integrity and where, you know, healthy altruism and compassion are present. You know, one is really, I'm very grateful that I'm an old Buddhist with years of practice behind me and the practice of you cultivating intentional balance, cultivating emotional balance, being able to self-reflect on what's going on in my body, what's happening in the stream of my emotions and thoughts. So, you know, all of this has been of benefit to me over the years, of practice in terms of stabilizing myself and being more resourced, able to engage, less done in by the work that I do. I mean, you know, I'm 80 years old and I feel mostly full of life, and humor and so forth. And I really attribute it to the mindset that has come out of these decades of practice. So I want to just mention that.
There's been in our culture, a great emphasis on mindfulness. And I feel like the frontier that is really important for us to open to at this time is compassion and to understand what compassion is composed of. So part of what I did was develop a heuristic map of compassion cause I wanted to be able to train people in compassion in a way that was accessible and made sense to people who were not just Buddhist, but to non Buddhist as well, since many of the people that I work with in fact are not Buddhist. And so you know, that work, which is also in the book Standing at the Edge, I won't go into it, you know, extensively here, but you know
JOAN: What I learned is compassion is not a kind of sappy, religious thing. I mean, it involves intentional balance. It involves our intention being fundamentally altruistic. It involves our capacity to be self-reflective, to understand what's happening in our own subjectivity, our capacity to be empathic. It involves our capacity to have an intention, which is very healthy and unselfish, and the ability to discern deeply and then to engage because we feel concern and we act out of that concern. I'm giving you a very condensed view, but you see, compassion is very nuanced and it involves mindfulness indeed, but it involves a number of other factors as well. And when I began to explore compassion more deeply, I realized, as I applied compassion to each of these edge states, that you mentioned, you know, the edge state of altruism, empathy, and so forth, I realized actually the pivot out of the toxic aspect of each of these edge states was in fact compassion and it began this deeper exploration, it completely, totally inspired me. It was like, yes. So, that is, you know, the kind of key to the book Standing at the Edge, which, you know, is saying these qualities are important, essential, but also at the same time they can go over, you can go over the edge, actually harm yourself, harm others, harm the institution that you're engaged in. Harm the institution or the even the nation that you're endeavoring to serve and so forth.
ELISE: I wanna read that Dr. Rachel Naomi Reman teaching that you include, helping, fixing and serving represent three different ways of seeing life. When you help, you see life as weak. When you fix, you see life as broken. When you serve, you see life as whole. And then she talks about how when you help, you can take away from people more than we could ever give. We may diminish their self-esteem, their sense of worth, integrity, and wholeness. When I help, I am very aware of my own strength, but we don't serve with our strength. We serve with ourselves. So beautiful and thinking about both that and sort of going into that a little bit more deeply, but with going to compassion isn’t, one of the core teachings and something that we all struggle to do that first we have to practice compassion with ourselves?
JOAN: You know, I think that's a very interesting question, Elise, because, from one point of view, there is no separate self from the Buddhist perspective. And so, you know, self-compassion, is you could say a kind of first step of healing our relationship to an identity which we fabricated. And so it's, you know, it's an interesting thing. But I think you know, you can hate your, your little self that just makes your little self even stronger. You can hyper cherish your little self, which makes your little self even stronger. And yet, until we heal that relationship, which is so often as a result of issues within our family system, we're stuck in this kind of grip of the inherent self-identity that gives us a sense of, you know, it's our ego sense of being real and true when in fact, you begin to realize that the self is coextensive with everything, including the atmosphere that we're breathing, including the ants that are moving across the walkway, including those people in Ukraine, both on the side of Russia and on the side of Ukraine who are in the grip of a terrible war.
And so, you know, it's really this deep realization of interconnectedness, interdependence, and inter penetration that comes from, dropping, you know, into out of the small self. Which, you know, as long as we've got all these wounds on our little self, that's where we're gonna rest. And so self-compassion practice is probably a way that those wounds are address.
ELISE: Yeah and detachment too, right? Which is so difficult, I think, again, going to the ego, but spending time with palliative care people like you or like my good friend BJ Miller and talking a lot about, you know, again, it goes to that fixing, but the instinct often from our own feelings of distress and sympathy or wanting to interfere because what's happening is deeply uncomfortable to us, right?
Similarly, you have this list. I don't remember the exact context, but I wrote it down cause it's so beautiful. But this idea that often when we move to fix or to help, or even in the best expression of, best empathic or compassionate expression of altruism, we want the validation right, that it helps. And one of the first things in this list is, may I offer my care and presence unconditionally knowing that it may be met by gratitude indifference, anger, or anguish. And you go on. But that's such a big teaching, right? How do you show up in the world and ideally serve without needing the gratification or validation that what you are offering is wanted, needed, or lovingly received?
JOAN: Yeah. So, one perspective has to do with a non-dual relationship to compassion or of compassion. Well, let me just cite the example of Shanti Deva, who wrote the Bohti Sofa's Way of Life. In that text, it's kind of a wonderful image, you know, if you step on a thorn your hand immediately goes to pull the thorn out of your foot—doesn’t ask the foot well, how do you feel about that? Or am I gonna be praise? And so o, you know, this experience of universal compassion where you are not separate in a fundamental way from those who are suffering, but from another point of view, you know, in terms of empathy over identification can be crushing.
So I think that one of the things that comes up in this work is to really understand that compassion can have an expression, what I call common compassion. That is that, you know, there's a self that feels concern and wants to benefit, uh, a suffering being but also, according to, you know, the deepest texts in my tradition, actually there's no self, there's no other, just like pulling the thorn out of the foot. There's not that distinction that's made. It's just, you know, a person who has this quality of universal compassion is at the ready. It's adaptive, it's responsive, it's context dependent. It completely depends on the situation of, you know, what is unfolding in the present moment and what your response will be. So, you know, it's all saying that compassion is like this. No. Compassion is an adaptive response.
ELISE: Yeah. I mean, it goes to the title of your book, Being with Dying, right? This, the practice of being with people at this scariest transition of their life and knowing how to stay there without necessarily intervention or, that’s quite a practice, right? And knowing also that you have to let that people have to go through that alone as much as the self is separate. This is a small moment in that book. You are talking about going to biosphere two and you notice that the trees are tethered by wire to the ceiling and you ask the scientists and he says that the trees are weak because there's no wind, there's no resistance, and so they have to be held up. And we know that from life, right? Like there those moments when we most wanna be saved, we shouldn't be saved. So it's hard that line between letting things unfold for people without intervention and or recognizing that that's what speeds growth, or an opportunity to get bigger. Even those really, really hard things and the moment when you step in.
JOAN: Yeah. Well, you know, this is a very good question because it points to being adaptive, being responsive at the, you know, of the level of integrity. The algorithms that are described, for example, in medicine are ones that are prescriptive and every situation is unique. So I think that this is, you know, this is a point well taken about compassion as completely adaptive. You know if a child is suffering before you, you will get on your knees and hold that little child, for example, you know, you're not gonna say, well the child, let's see if I'm gonna get social merit for hugging this child, or will that child's mother like me better? You just do what is natural. And I think that part of the work that we're all challenged to do is in a certain way, is to really re-humanize ourselves and to move out of the kind of futility or skepticism and the objectification of others where our capacity to care is diminished. And of course, you know, compassion deficit adversely affects those who experience it, whether you're in the healthcare profession or what, so you know, what we wanted to do is have a surplus of compassion, not a deficit.
ELISE: Yeah. And I think it’s incumbent on all of us too in some ways to those who might be the recipients or those who someday will be on our deathbed. And this is why I think being with dying, regardless of whether you're in process with someone or it might not happen for 40 or 50 years, it's such a useful act to go through this process. And, and one of the exercises that you give is to imagine your death, not in a death meditation way, although those can be really valuable too. But in this, what do you want? Like where would you wanna be? Who would you wanna be there? Not as like a fantasy, but as a reality for understanding and being able to a articulate or advocate for yourself in that moment. And ideally, I mean, this is where I get practical, but my brother-in-law died when he was young in his sleep and we were so obviously completely unprepared, as was he. And so you're left on the other side of that tragedy, puzzling through what would he want? We had no idea. And so actually doing this, even when you're 20 or 30 and writing it down for someone is loving, I think loving and a roadmap, I think for people who are caring for you. And it's really interesting to think about like the, again, going to being with dying. When you were talking about how so many people, obviously you've sat with thousands of people, I would guess, how many people need to be alone? Thought that was so beautiful in part because of attachment, right? That to detach, you can't be in the presence of the person you don't wanna leave. Beautiful cause it's so nuanced around how we actually think people want to go. I think I would wanna be alone.
JOAN: Yeah. You know, it says in a way a couple of things. One is that we so often interfere in the journey of dying as a way to soothe ourselves. To, you know, kind of take care of our own grief or an and so forth, but what we've learned is, you know, how can you come alongside a dying person in such a way that you're not interfering, you're truly being with dying instead of assisting with dying.
ELISE: Yeah. I think it’s really worth contemplating because, and the same with any of these edge states, the way that we receive someone's altruism or someone's compassion or experience their integrity, that says a lot about how, I don't think many of us stop to think about that. How would I, what would I appreciate?
JOAN: Well, and, you know, it's such an interesting, question Elise. I have a very close friend who's a renowned doctor who's had several strokes and his wife called me the other day saying my husband had a minor stroke and then a major stroke. And has actually said to me it's time for for me to go. I've done my work. He said, I've written so many books, I really feel complete with my life and let's plan how my dying can be the best it can be. And also here’s what I want in my memorial service. I was like, oh, wow. That was a very moving conversation with his wife. And that's a kind of remarkable path that he's chosen. You know, some people choose that path I would say in a less wise way. I feel that his choice and what he wants is really coming from a base of love and wisdom.
And one of the things that I think is so interesting about the Buddhist perspective or the Buddhist view is that not just the dying process, which is a deep process of shedding, if you will, or dissolution, but the moment of death, death point is that moment for the greatest potential of realization, of awakening, of full liberation. And it's, you know, it's a different view than we have in the West. I quite like the Buddhist view. The Christian viewers and the view of various other non Buddhist traditions, I think also beneficial of, you know, heaven and hell, which are to me, states of mind and so forth. Ultimately, Elise, death is a mystery.
ELISE: Yes.
JOAN: And I rest with it in that way.
ELISE: That's kind of a beautiful place to start. In working with your texts or working sort of with your teachings, do you have like a great hope for people or is there anything, you know, we started talking about the environment, how do we actually, that's where I'd like to end with you. How do we summon everything that we'll need for this? For what's ahead of us. I think we're all recognizing what's coming, increasing suffering, and it's gonna be hard. I believe, like you, that we can do this, but we'll suffer. What would you like to see people bring to this?
JOAN: Well, what I want to see people not to bring to it is futility. Futility is of no use. And I wanna cite my own work on hope, something I've called wise hope, which is not hope with an outcome pressing against the field of hope. But Wise hope is actually hope that is informed by the truth of uncertainty. By also what Vaclav Haval has talked about in terms of even if you know you have no idea of the outcome or you see that the outcome is not going to be positive, you still show up and you do what is good and right and necessary to do. And I also wanna cite the work of my beloved friend, Rebecca Solnit. You know, we are kind of the Hope Sisters along with Joanna Macy. You know, here's three women and it's International Women's Day and I just wanna cite the elder of great heart and brilliance who's written beautifully about Active Hope. That is, you know, you just show up no matter. And Rebecca, who's written so brilliantly about hope, and it just hope gives our life meaning, drive and a sense of who we really are. So that seems like a wonderful way to end our beautiful conversation. I thank you so much for your questions.
ELISE: Such an honor and have a wonderful international women's day and let's go for hope I'm with you and I also revere both of those women. So thank you and have a great day.
JOAN: Thank you so much, Elise. Bye.
ELISE: Bye.
Well, that was an honor. Standing at the edge is an essential read. She clarifies and puts context around these really big, beautiful, animating impulses that we have that sometimes, I think, don’t feel good for other people or don’t feel good for us. So just to double click on them, cause we move through it pretty quickly. “Altruism can turn into pathological altruism,” she writes, “Selfless actions in service to others are essential to the well-being of society and the natural world. But sometimes, our seemingly altruistic acts harm us, harm those whom we are trying to serve, or harm the institutions we serve in.” Then there is “Empathy can slide into empathic distress.” She writes, “When we are able to sense into the suffering of another person, empathy brings us closer to one another, can inspire us to serve, and expands our understanding of the world. But if we take on too much of the suffering of another, and identify too intensely with it, we may become damaged and unable to act.” Then there’s integrity which can slide into moral suffering, she writes “Integrity points to having strong moral principles. But when we engage in or witness acts that violate our sense of integrity, justice, or beneficience, moral suffering can be the outcome.” Then there is respect, which “can disappear into the swamp of toxic disrespect.” So she says, “Respect is a way we hold beings and things in high regard. Respect can disappear into the swamp of toxic disrespect when we go against the grain of values and principles of civility, and disparage others or ourselves.” And then, finally, there’s engagement. She writes, “Engagement in our work can give a sense of purpose and meaning to our lives, particularly if our work serves others. But overwork, a poisonous workplace, and the experience of the lack of efficacy can lead to burnout, which can cause physical and psychological collapse.” Thanks, as always, for listening.
