Kwame Scruggs, PhD: Using Myth to Heal
Kwame Scruggs, born and Raised in Akron, Ohio, spent the first 15 years after high school working for the Goodyear tire company. And then, he took a leap, or decided, in the words of mythologist Joseph Campbell to follow his bliss. He went deep into the works of Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, and Michael Meade, where he came to understand that myth can transform lives—that seeing yourself in the context of a much larger human story can change anything. Ultimately, he received a PhD in Mythological Studies and Depth Psychology.
Kwame began working with high school dropouts and other at-risk kids across Ohio in 1998, where he led them through myths to the beat of the djembe drum, reconnecting them to a much higher purpose. He ultimately founded Alchemy, where they work with thousands of youth. In 2012, Alchemy won the President’s Committee National Arts and Humanities Youth Program Award, the nation’s highest honor for after-school and out-of-school programs, an award Kwame accepted from the First Lady, Michelle Obama, at the White House. In 2020, the Association of Teaching Artists (with Lincoln Center Education) presented Kwame with their Innovation in Teaching Artistry award.
His work is stunning, particularly in its ability to inspire life-changing moments for kids who come to realize the power inherent within each of them, to see themselves as the hero of their own story, and why that story matters. I loved our conversation.
TRANSCRIPT:
(Edited slightly for clarity.)
ELISE LOEHNEN:
I'm very excited to talk to you and I've watched a bunch of the videos on your site, but I'm excited to learn everything about you, and your work. And I know, I guess we can start there. I know you worked at Goodyear and then followed your intuition or followed your bliss. What was that moment for you where you decided I'm gonna go into Depth Psychology?
KWAME SCRUGGS:
I worked at Goodyear 15 years. I started working when I was 16. I graduated high school on a Thursday, started working at Goodyear the following Monday. So I worked there 15 years, went to school in the evening. So it took me 15 years to get my bachelor's degree. So I had changed my major quite a few times. I majored in commercial art for a number of years, and then changed my major, then finally finished. Then I was gonna move to New York City. I left Goodyear in 1991 after 15 years—trust me when I tell you I am not the corporate type. I started in the mail room and then I was there nine months as low as you could go, mail room as low as you could go, which just added to my insecurity when you were you, you know you made a little joke, but wow, just added to my insecurity.
And then I worked in the advertising department for five years, but just delivering mail. So I was the mail boy in the advertising department. Then the last nine years, I worked at mold design doing drafting. So they had offered a separation letter, and the first time they offered it, I wasn't done with school. So I didn't take it. The second time they offered it, I said, the next time they offer this, I'm gonna be in a position to take it. So I started to take three classes, started going to school in the summer. So then they offered it a third time, and I took it. I had no job in sight. I was gonna move to New York. It was 1991. My little sister stayed there. Then the recession hit. So I didn't move. I had turned down a graduate assistantship.
I didn't even know what a graduate assistantship was. And then it was my last week of work and I'm like, I don't have anything to do, nowhere to go. So I called Dr. Fry to see if that was still available. So I accepted the graduate assistantship, I wanted to get my master's in counseling, but I took a 70% cut and pay, leaving Goodyear for the graduate assistantship. So I ended up getting my master's in the same thing I got my bachelor's in, technical education with an emphasis in guidance counseling. So then I ended up getting a job at the University of Akron. I was in the step program or Upward Bound working with middle school and high school students, first generation, primarily with urban youth. And they had me counseling the students. So I went back to school in the evening, again, to get my master's in counseling. I did all the coursework. That was an interesting little slip. I said, curse work. I was gonna say I did all the coursework, all I had to do with my internship in comps and I just quit. Because I was tired of school. I'd been in school about 20 years at the time in the evening.
So then what happened? My father was my father. He ran the neighborhood Youth Corps. He was like director. So he had literally like a thousand youth and adults working for him. So I used to hang out on the playgrounds, you know, every day, like on the west side of Akron, at Crowd School or Schumacher. So all my friends were like working there. And so, so, you know, from that, that, and like my cousins, um, was just always kind of like in the community, I'm not gonna say in the community, but seeing the importance of working with youth. So my girlfriend, and we ended up getting married, but she was working like in the community and then she told me for all the things I was into, she said, you should get involved with these people while I was working and going to school, you know, so I didn't have time.
And so then when I graduated, then I finally started to volunteer with this group of people, working with urban youth. So through that, got introduced to an African based rights of passage. Okay. Brothers from Milwaukee came down, and this other brother. And that's where I got introduced into the work of, of, well, I got introduced to the African spirituality, but I got introduced to the work of Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. So he was standing there and he had portable Jung. He was standing at his desk at this desk and he had portable Jung, standing like vertically and he had his hand on top of it. And he mentioned about Jung, and I had heard Jung a couple times and, you know, taking the counseling classes, but really, you know, they not studying Jung you know, and so, and so I read Portable Jung and I was just blown away by Jung’s concepts.
I remember that chapter on the phenomenology of self, and I was blown away by synchronicity and the anima, the female within, in the stages of development. And so I just, wow. I started reading more Jung, and then they had this workshop, they brought some other brothers in to this workshop, and we were in this basement of this art’s place. And they had showed a clip of Joseph Campbell, and I was just, wow. I was really engaged. And he saw my engagement and he just walked past me. And he said, he said, you should read The Power of Myth. So I read The Power of Myth. And so when I read The Power of Myth, Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth, I came across that sentence: “When you follow your bliss doors open, where you thought there would be no doors.” And at the time I was reading Michael Meade, Men and the Water of Life. Also at that time—that's why people can't tell me there ain't a God.
So also at that time, I'm counseling students, urban youth, and it's like male youth. And it's like pulling teeth, getting them to talk. So I read Michael Meade’s Men and the Water of Life and that just blew me away because it just helped me to understand so much about my life, through a myth, through a myth. And so I'm like, I'm gonna start using this with the youth and the parents. Because I also had to coordinate 10 parent workshops a year at University of Akron, the Upward Bound program. And would maybe do three or four of 'em myself. So I started using myth with the youth and adults. And so Campbell's follow your bliss: “When you follow your bliss doors open, where you thought there would be no doors.”
I was 38-years-old at the time, I'm staring out my window, and I asked myself, what was my bliss? What was it that I wanted to do? Not what could I do? I said, what did I wanna do? And my exact words were: play my drum and tell mythological stories. The internet had just come out. Cause that was around 1997. And so I asked the secretary because I knew if I did that, I was gonna have to have some credentials. So I'm like, I'll get a PhD, you know, in mythology. So I asked the secretary to find me a school that offered a PhD. And like I said, the internet had just come out. So all she could find was a PhD program at Ohio State in folklore. And she found some other place somewhere and I'm like, I don't want folklore. I can't remember the other place. So I just said, forget it.
Months later, a friend of mine, Bruce Webb, came to my office and his exact words were, he threw this magazine on my desk, Common Boundaries. His exact words were “Kwame, it's some interesting ads and articles in here.” I'm flipping through it. And I see Pacifica Graduate Institute that offers a master's and PhD in mythological studies with an emphasis in depth psychology. And I remember getting on the speaker phone and calling because it was in California. I'm like, there's no way I can go to California. I got a wife and a four-year-old son. I'm like, there's no way I can do that. But I just wanted to see the kind of classes that somebody would take, you know, to get their degree in that. The catalog came to my office, University of Akron on March the Seventh, 3, 7 = 10, new beginning.
I still had a magazine and a catalog in my office and I'm flipping through that. And I mean, I’m like, I'm already reading all this stuff. And I literally could not put that catalog down for like three days. I'm going to bed with it and everything. Because I was using myth on my job paid for me to go to the conference. I went out to Santa Barbara, took my wife and son out. They didn't go to conference. We just took him to Santa Barbara with me. And while I was there, I visited the campus and I was sitting in this room waiting on an interview, and it was white walls, and just black and white photos. And I've only felt a spirit a few times in my life and I felt a spirit just come and said, woo, you need to be here.
There you go. I got more stories on that, but that wasn't even a short version. And so then, I just started paying attention to my dreams and mystic events because you know, how do you justify going from Akron, Ohio to Santa Barbara, California once a month to get a degree in mythology? What in the fuck? A degree in mythology. So that's when I just started pay attention to my dream. Different synchronistic events and it was just apparent, that that's what I was supposed to do.
ELISE:
And so then Alchemy as its name implies works on sort of the meta level and the micro level as well. It's an organization where you use the myth, drum circles, journaling, with kids primarily boys, right? And you use myth to initiate them to what it is to find the meaning of their lives and the importance of their existence.
KWAME:
Yes. Yeah, yeah. To incorporate the character traits of the hero into their own lives: making sacrifices, overcoming obstacles, asking for help. Incorporating those character traits into their lives so that they can become the hero within their own story.
ELISE:
Can you take us through and you taught, you mentioned just briefly how hard it is to get kids to talk. And I'm sure a lot of the kids that you work with are traumatized, right. Or maybe more shut in. How does that work? What is that experience like for them when they come to that first circle?
KWAME:
For the most part, youth can tell when you really care about 'em. So we are pretty good at creating a safe environment, creating a safe environment for 'em. So we just emphasize there's no right or wrong answers, you know, it is merely for discussion sake. So they're pretty comfortable right off the rip, pretty much day one, they're pretty comfortable sharing. And another reason why I think they're comfortable sharing because they feel our spirits and they know we care. Okay. One of the first things we do is apologize to them for our generation leaving them on their own. Because 85% of the youth we work with don't have their fathers in their lives. So it was our generation that left them. So that's one of the first things we do. So they feel comfortable because they know that we care.
And then another reason is because we also share our stories with them, and let them know the mistakes we've made so that our mistakes won't be in vain. So pretty much from day one, they talk pretty much from day one because here again, it's through a myth, that's the thing, if you tell somebody they're doing something wrong, it's only quote unquote wrong, it's only natural to become defensive. But if you tell 'em through a myth, through a story, it removes you from the situation and it allows you to see the situation objectively, and then you look and you like, damn, I'm doing some of the same shit he doing. And you seeing where that's ending up, but by the, you know, the opposite, you start to when you're doing the quote unquote right thing, where it ends up. So here again, you know, it's just cool because using the myth removes from the situation. And also when you're listening to everybody's opinions, you know, that allows you to see that rain does not fall on one roof alone, and life is so much about making decisions. And like we tell 'em generally speaking, you know, the more information you have on the subject, the better decision you're gonna make. So it's about having an open mind. You know with all that said, you know, just like in myth, the hero or heroine never accomplishes their task alone. They always have assistance from some sort of guide. So I've been blessed. I've just been in the right place at the right time with the right people around me. Like, you know, I tell people this has been successful in spite of me, not because of me. And that's the truth, you know, granted I've done what I had to do, but wow. Just my ancestors, I just got so many helpers to assist me. So I've been blessed beyond measure.
ELISE:
In the hero's journey, the teacher, the teacher that's needed, emerges right. Or reveals him or herself. And so obviously I'm sure you are that person. And then there are other teachers as well who show up in these kids' lives. Is there one myth that you start with, or one story that's particularly resonant, and can you tell it to us?
KWAME:
Yeah, basically it's not so much because it's most resonant, but the one we start off with first and now, and here again, I gotta give credit to Michael Meade. Cause I lived off Michael Meade's work for about seven years. Michael Meade’s been to Akron like five times to work with our youth. But the first myth we start off with is “The Water of Life.” And you know with our core group of youth, when I say core group, those are the youth we've had like sixth grade through 12th or we had one group we started with in fourth grade, we've worked with over 2,000 youth in Akron and Cleveland primarily. But our core group has only been about 88, and those are the ones here again that we've had since fourth grade through 12th, or sixth through 12th, or ninth through 12th.
But the first myth we do is “The Water of Life.” And the reason why we do that one first is because in this myth, the king has three sons and the king is sick. And like we say, when the king is sick, the whole village is sick. So we have them identify what's the king in their lives. What's the most important thing in their lives, or person or thing in their lives. And if that's not doing well, then nothing is gonna do well. Quote unquote. Well the three sons, they sitting on the steps in their crying because their father, the king is sick, and this old man walks by and because they're crying, he stops and he asks them why they're crying. They say we're crying because our father, the king is sick. And the old man says, well, I know where a cure is.
He said, but it's difficult to get to. And the myth goes on and on. But we do that first for this reason: It's because the boys are crying that he stops. So if you’re sitting on the steps, you know, urban youth, we got this persona, like everything is cool and it's not. And so if you acting like everything is cool and it's not that old man gonna keep walking by, but because you crying, that's a sign that something is wrong. And then like we tell 'em, but you know, because that's a common theme in myth. And we say, if it's a common theme in myth, chances are, it's a common theme in life. Often you see the boys crying in the myth. And so we'll say, it's okay for boys to cry.
So we want them to be able to be comfortable enough to let somebody know that something is wrong. Okay. And in that way somebody's gonna stop and they gonna listen. All right. And then the myth goes on and on. But the second reason why we use this first is because the first older two brothers think that if they secure the water of life, they'll become their father's favorite and inherit the brother’s kingdom. But the youngest son doesn't think that way. And like we say, he was just about your age, just about your age. The older two sons, when they go in search of the water of life, one by one, on their own, they run into this dwarf, and the dwarf asks where they are going in such a hurry, and they say, none of your business, you little runt, what business is it of yours? And kick dust in his face where the dwarf casts a magic spell on them.
And so the further they ride, the mountains close upon them. And so they don't return. So the king remains sick. And when the king is sick, the entire village is sick. But when the youngest son is going on the road and he sees the dwarf, and the dwarf asks him, where is he going? The youngest son gets off of his horse. And he admits that he does not know where he is going. And then the dwarf pretty much gets him everything that he needs. And so that's the reason why we tell that first: the importance of crying, letting somebody know that something is wrong, and having the willingness to get off your horse and admit that you do not know where you're going. And when you do that, you're pretty much given assistance. So that's the first myth.
ELISE:
That's beautiful.
KWAME:
Yeah. So like in school, you know, in school program, we might get through 1, 2, 3 myths a year, you know, 25 weeks in, in that seven year period, they we'll get through anywhere from like 21 to 25 myths in a seven year period.
ELISE:
And that's because within the drum circle, the kids are sharing?
KWAME:
Yes. Yeah, yeah. For each myth, what we do, we tell a portion of a myth to the beat of a drum. We stop at the critical points in the myth and we ask them what resonates with 'em in the myth. And they all have journals. Everything is black, red, and white, everything, black, red, and white. So they all have their journals and they write down what resonates with 'em. And then for each section of the myth, we'll have questions that pertain to the myth. So then they have to go around and answer the question. So they sit in a circle by age, youngest to oldest, two reasons for that is that one is because it's up to the oldest to look out for the youngest. And the second reason is because you have your space, and because you have your space, there's no reason to be jealous or envious of anybody else's space. So that's why it takes so long because we go around and each one of them has to respond to the questions, and here again, you know, there's no right or wrong answers. It just creates discussion. It's pretty good.
ELISE:
And are sixth through ninth graders together?
KWAME:
No, for the most part, they'll start as a cohort. So all sixth graders. Okay. And then we'll keep 'em. But then what would happen? What would happen? When we first started off, it was an after school program. But then we had 'em sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. So they were all in the same grade. But then when they went to high school, they were going to different schools. So we started to have Saturday programs and we would meet on Saturdays for four hours,10 months out the year. And so then after we went through that first core group, and then we had other youth come in, like in sixth grade. And so then we would have, you know, maybe like seniors with sophomores and juniors. But that took some years before that to happen. So normally, like when in school they're all the same grades.
ELISE:
It's beautiful. And it's interesting. And I don't know, and I think this is true for all kids probably, or, you know, the absence of myth culturally, or these rites of initiation that we've lost over millennia. And didn't Jung say something like, absent mythologizing, we start pathologizing. And probably for these kids who are missing one parent, father, I would imagine not to project, but then there's really no gap. There's this immediacy? Like you become the man of the house. So there's a chasm there that needs to be walked through. And this is a guess, but this like, gives these kids an opportunity to recognize, like you don't just pick up the mantle of manhood, right. It is a process.
KWAME:
Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of that, before I forget, the one thing I'm most proud of with our youth and our oldest youth now are like 29 years old. And then in that first core group, it was 28 of them. And of that, of that 28, 26 of 28 graduated high school on time, 24 of that 26 went to college to date. 13 of them have bachelor's degrees. Five of them have master's degrees. One just completed his dual MBA and doctorate. He's on our board. But the thing I think the majority of them would've been okay anyway without Alchemy, but what I'm most proud of, we have about six of them who are fathers and I'm friends with 'em on Facebook. And just to see, matter of fact, which man, I just saw the picture yesterday, because his son is going into third grade, and wow.
Just the love they have for their children. Because so many of the myths deal with parent-child relationships. And like I said, 80, 85% of them didn't have their fathers in their lives. So that's what I'm most proud of, is just to see them being fathers in the lives of their lives of their children. Jung was saying the worst curse upon the child is the unlived lives of the parents. Michael Meade was saying, the job of the child is to kill the parent, and the job of the parent is to not retaliate.
ELISE:
Well, so many myths start with the death of a parent, right? And so many Disney stories, it's like the death of a mother, but is that just the gap that, is it through myth? Not reality necessarily, but is that what creates a space for a child to imagine their own evolution? Is that how you think of it or what do you think, why do you think myth is so important?
KWAME:
It allows you to dream and to hope and to see that things can be accomplished, that you can slay a dragon, that you can become the hero within your own story. If you persevere and you make those sacrifices, Huston Smith in a book, The World's Religions, he said the best way to train a wild elephant is to yoke it to one. That's already been through the process this way, the wild one will come to see those startlingly different. It is still viable. And so then that's why it's so important for the youth who quote unquote, “make it” to come back, and give back so that they can see, you know, that it's possible. I remember when I finished my dissertation and I did my dissertation on the use of myth, you know, to assist in development of urban adolescent males.
I remember finishing it. 270 something pages and I remember walking upstairs and then looking out my front door and I'm like, you know, it's not that difficult. And I was wondering why more urban youth don't make it. And then I realized that, you know, I was living in suburbs at the time, but I grew up in West Akron on Store Avenue between L and Alot in an all Black neighborhood. But I mean, you know, this is back in the ‘60s. I mean, so we all had fathers in our neighborhoods and here again, Goodyear, you know, the rubber factory. So I mean, I grew up lower middle class, but looking out my window, my screen door.
And when you’re living in the suburbs, you’re coming home every day to, you know, quiet neighborhood, manicured lawn, generally speaking to parents, food in the refrigerator, you have tangible evidence every day that you can touch, and you see that sacrifices pay off. You're growing up in the urban neighborhood. You don't have that. So it's hard for them to think long term. Because they think in short term because you don't come home to that every day. So you don't see how sacrifices pay off. So that's why it's important for those of us who quote unquote, “make it,” to go back and let them know that, Hey, you know, they can do the same thing. Like a friend of mine told me, he said, my nickname is Cowboy. And he, he said, he said, if Cowboy can do it, I know I can.
ELISE:
When we see what's possible and when, you know, limiting beliefs are easy to create when we have, and we have very few examples and obviously a lot of women recognize that, right, based on just the misogyny that's built into culture. But when you think culturally too about masculinity, and it's interesting the hero's journey. I love Campbell as well. And I love the hero's journey, and I can figure out how to apply it to my life. But so many women can get upset, or feel excluded from some of these mythologies. I think we can move past that. But culturally, we live in a world awash with toxic masculinity, you know, and you look at what's happening in schools. It's primarily white disturbed boys slaughtering other children, et cetera. Do you feel like myth and, and sort of actually, I don't know if you call it a more balanced version of masculinity or sort of this uber-masculine idea that still requires vulnerability, as you mentioned in asking for help, do you feel like that has the, that that's some sort of missing cultural link that can realign men?
KWAME:
Is that a rhetorical question?
ELISE:
It's a nesting doll question. They're my specialty. It's like 80 questions, including what is the meaning of life.
KWAME:
Okay. All right. I think without a doubt, cuz here again, it removes you from the situation and it allows you to see, you know, what's needed. So you need to balance, you need to balance, and I've yet to, you know, I'm not saying it's not anything else out there, but I've yet to see anything work better.
To talk and to think than myth, you know—or anything in the arts, you know, being music or art. I just think the arts that's, you know, not, not taking anything away from anything else, you know, but yeah. I think, you know, like I say to me, myth is the ticket, you know, I got three anecdotal stories that definitely told me that myth is the ticket, you know?
ELISE:
Can you tell us all of them?
KWAME:
One of them. I was working with, when I first started working with high school dropouts in Akron. When I first started working with 'em I had like three different groups started off maybe like four youth at a group by the end of the year, I had about 15 in each group. But it was our last session, and I'd probably had 'em for about 12 weeks and I did The Water of Life last. Okay. Now these high school dropouts. Ages 16 to like 20, that whole tough, you know, persona. We doing The Water of Life. They took it upon themselves to ask one another, you know, cause the boy crying, they took it upon themselves to go around that circle and say, when was the last time they cried? And I remember sitting, I didn't ask the question, they asked it.
And I remember sitting there. I said, wow, this myth is the ticket. The second anecdotal story. I was up in Cleveland working for high school dropouts. And this was when Cleveland was ranked as the poorest city in the country. And in an Akron, they gave me like, I only had like 12, 15 per, per group, you know, three sessions in Cleveland, this dude who's running the program trying to get his money's worth. So he would give me 30 high school dropouts at a time. Okay. In three different sessions. And I was telling him, I can't do this. So I'm getting nothing done. I'm really getting nothing done. I have 'em for like an hour and a half. And I remember coming home one night, and sleeping, and I'm like, this has to change. So I went to the youth and I told him, I said, Hey man, I know I got something to offer y'all. I said, what I'll do is I'll give you the first 15 minutes. You guys can do whatever you want to do. And I'll give you the last 15 minutes. You can do whatever you wanted to do. Now this was in the summer. So this was back in the time where there was like freaking black and mild. Okay. That's like when you take the black and mild and then you take the tobacco out and they call it, pulling something else out, so that's what they doing. They freaking, they black and mild and just talking shit. Some funny dudes, just first 15 minutes, there is last 15 minutes. I said, you give me the hour in between. And then they would do that. They would do that. Well, one day it was their 15 minutes and there was this one dude, man, sharp brother who was from South Central Los Angeles.
And he was sitting on the ledge and doing all this chaos, he hollered, Kwame, tell us another story. And I said, wow, this myth is the ticket. And then the one other anecdotal story was when I was working at University of Akron. And I used to run groups for girls, too. Okay. Now this is way back in the day. Okay. 1999 or whatever. I ran into one of the student's moms at the airport. She was urban, you know, urban youth, but she went to a private school and then she ended up going to like a prestigious high school. Then she ended up going to, she ended up going to Yale, and then she became a doctor, went to Baylor. But I ran into her mom at the airport.
And her mom told me that whenever she at, at this time she was going to Baylor. And her mom told me that whenever she came across some dilemma, she didn't reflect back on her education at these prestigious schools. She reflected back on the myth we told in eighth grade. Bam. Myth is the ticket. So now for the most part, I work with adults, for the most part. As we say, myths are false on the outside, but true on the inside; myths are lies, which tell the truth. Myths are stories that have never been, but will always be. They say, if you give a person facts and ideas, you enlighten their minds. But if you tell 'em a story, you touch their souls. But my favorite quote: “Myths are not just for putting children to sleep, but for waking adults up.” So I love working with the youth, but with the adults, it's really cool because we just have so much more life to reflect upon.
ELISE:
What's the context that you work with adults. Is it group counseling? Are you training?
KWAME:
Primarily we are just doing the myths. We do the myths, while the myths do us. Same myths I use with the youth. For the most part, the same questions. And it's all pretty much just basically getting them to know themselves better, and to answer some of the deeper questions in life. And here again, trying to incorporate the character traits of the her in your own life. Dan Millman, beautiful book The Laws of Spirit. He says: “As humans, we very seldom fail. We merely stop trying.” So it's just trying to get people to follow their bliss. I think you can tell, we use a lot of quotes. One of my favorite quotes is: “The space for what you want is filled already with what you settle for instead.” So it’s about trying to become the person you're meant to become, which is not easy, you know, in a consumer world.
ELISE:
So it's about following your bliss. So what's in terms of Alchemy, are adults part of Alchemy as well now? It's not just youth?
KWAME:
As a matter of fact, this will be the first year that I won't be running any groups. We'll have eight groups going. My son will be head lead facilitator and we have a lead facilitator, a drum, a storyteller, and a liaison, you know, who was a liaison between the school and the youth and the school and Alchemy. So my son has a bachelor's in psychology and a master's in social work from Case. And then we have another brother who had worked with Alchemy for probably about six years. He has a master's in counseling from Pacifica. So he'll run three groups. Imani is gonna run three. And then we have three women who work with girls. So this will be their fourth year together running groups. We're in our 19th year now, but we've probably had about nine male adults, you know, over those 19 years, who have worked without me. So, so what we wanna do is try to train others in our methods so that they can go into the schools. I'm looking to get it started in New York City.
ELISE:
I was gonna ask if that's the plan to sort of take this approach and scale it.
KWAME:
Yeah. That's the plan, New York City first. Yeah.
ELISE:
Clearly you have some data as you have these cohorts going on into the world. That seems pretty stunning. There's no AB test for this sort of program or intervention. And I know that you've been honored by the White House. I know that your community particularly really understands the value of this work, but what do you see happen? Like how do you see these, and clearly you're with these kids for a long time, but what, what do you see happen? Is there more reflection before action? Is there more vulnerability?
KWAME:
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Both. You can definitely, when you sit down with our youth, who've been in the program for like seven years or whatever you can see that their critical thinking skills, you know, are probably above, above average because here again, you know, like, like say, you know, when in the myths, these myths been around for thousands, thousands thousand, thousand years. They're a roadmap, you know? When you study in the myths, it pretty much, you know, gives you a clue of how to go about life. One of the quotes we use is: “To know after knowing cannot be considered to have known.” All right. So it's like when you study the myth, you can kind of see what's about to happen.
I tell the youth of all the quotes, you know, that we use the one, I always want them to remember if they don't remember any other one, is “It is far easier to suppress the first desire than to satisfy all that follows.” So we see a deeper level of critical thinking. And that's not to say, you know, we can't save 'em all, we don't save them all. We've had a few matter of fact, some of our top youth, when I say top, I mean, top, went the wrong way. You know, one of 'em had the highest test scores in Akron public schools. Another one had like the highest test scores in his school, but I mean, the streets, the streets are calling again. I mean, you know, that's short term gratification and it's hard to say no to that, so we don't save them all, but, you know we've had impact on a few.
ELISE:
Yeah. Well, and even that alone, to have impact on one person. I think we live in this culture too, that suggests that if you're not changing the world, that your life is meaningless. And the reality is the best that any of us can do is try to change ourselves. And maybe our family, so to impact any community is so significant. And you're sending out boys and men who then can model for their friends what it is to be in touch with their feelings, which it seems like that's the greatest crime in a way. Is this disconnection from being, this abandonment of feeling?
KWAME:
Yeah. Yeah. So here again, you know, I tear up at the drop of a hat, and got another facilitator who tears up quicker than I do. But we tell the youth, the soul would have no rainbow had the eyes no tears. And so whenever any of the youth tear up, or any of the adults, we take the tears and we rub it on the drum so that the tears don't go to waste. They reverberate, you know, when we hit the drum. So a lot of it's about dealing with your feelings, you know, like, like Meade says, if you don't deal with your wound, you will continue to wound others. So it's about them identifying how they've been wounded, but then also it's that wound that drives.
So you find out what your wound ism and that drive, that's one of the reasons why I do what I do. You know, we started the whole thing off about the insecurity and just growing up, you know, my earliest images of childhood, we were colored then, seeing the colored people walking down, and I'm three, four years old, seeing them walking down the streets and being beaten, you know, by the police with the sticks, and the dogs, and the water hoses, and everything I saw on TV. We were Butler slaves clowns. So I really internalized that I was less than due to the color of my skin. And at 64-years-old, I'm just now getting over that. I still do have a lot of insecurity.
ELISE:
Are you hopeful?
KWAME:
Hopeful about what?
ELISE:
I don't know. I mean, it feels like we're at such a strange moment of time.
KWAME:
We are living in mythic times.
ELISE:
We are living in mythic times living.
KWAME:
In mythic times. Yeah, but I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. A couple times we had our youth go around and pick out one motif that they learned that myth taught 'em what was the one motif. And for me it was hope, that was the one motif for me. It was hope, myth provides hope. So. Yeah. I'm hopeful. Am I going, you know, I might not see it in my day, but, you know, because it seemed like we going backwards, but, but there's definitely, you know, glimmers of hope. So yes. I'm hopeful.
ELISE:
Yeah. It seems like, yes, there's this concurrent backsliding and then also these strides forward and that at least people seem to be waking up. And engaging.
KWAME:
Yes. Yes.
ELISE:
What in the context of myth, this is another big rhetorical question, but in the context of myth and these mythic times. Where do you think that we culturally, that we are?
KWAME:
Wow, that's a good question. I think it might be possible for us to be in two places at one time. My first thought was we're in the wasteland. And we still searching for water, but then, on the other side you have, you know, things that we are able to do that we've never been able to do before. So I think they're both present. I think they're both present. I think we have one foot in both worlds right now. That's off the top of my head. That's what I would say.
ELISE:
I think we're in the wasteland too. But I think it's part of it is will require a reconceiving of the wasteland as a land of opportunity or a place that we have to go. I mean, obviously right. That's the, the structure of myth it's like, you have to keep, you have to move through it. And that part of it feels slike some people are in the wasteland and they're trying to get other people to join us.
KAME:
Yeah. Yeah. Like Campbell was saying, it's hard to convince somebody of some place they need to go. If they don't know, know they are in the wasteland, you know, like Campbell said, you go into the forest and you gather this gold or whatever. And then when you come out back to the community, it turns to dust because people don't realize that they don't realize that they needed it. Jung was saying, I don't know if this is on the same wavelength or not, but Jung says that we are all walking in shoes too small, living diminished lives, not in the court with our potential. You know, I think it was Bud Harris who said another Jungian analyst who said, we are all captives over normal. We just have so much potential. There's just so many things we could do. And that's what's so sad. To see the youth with so much potential and just see 'em throw it away, and see 'em do it right in front of your face. And you try to warn 'em, you know, if you keep walking down that path, you going end up, you know, where you walking.
And not just for youth, but for adults. And that's another thing, you know, with adults, we tell 'em that, Hey, to regret that a journey was not started earlier, only delays further it's beginning.
ELISE:
Beautiful. What does Alchemy need? I mean, I'm sure financial partners are always helpful, but are you training more therapists, or what do you need?
KWAME:
Wow. We need some money. We need some money. I would love here again, New York. I would love to just start off with like 12 people to train, 12 people in our method. To be able to go into the schools if we could just, if we could. A lot of nonprofits, if you could just get the money, you spend so much time trying to raise money when you get the money, you’re tired. You're too tired to do the work. You need to stop making people jump through all these hoops, especially when you've already proven yourself.
So that's what we need. We need somebody to say, Hey, here's some money, go do what you do. And I mean, we got the data, you know, you're talking about data. We at Kent State doing our data for years, and an education initiative here in Akron doing our data. So, I mean, you know, the thing that we do, it's unique, it's engaging. And most importantly it works. So I would love to be able to, there not even a lot of money, don't even need a lot. Just gimme this money. And I mean, we got our financial piece. You can see where the money's going. Give me the money, let me do the work, train these people to go and change lives. I guarantee you that it's gonna change lives. Just gimme 12 people.
ELISE:
Okay. Let’s manifest it.
Well, Kwame makes me want to keep a quote book because he is full of incredible and inciteful sayings. And there’s nothing like a single statement, when it can summarize so much of the human experience. It’s such a gut punch. And there’s obviously some feminist backlash to Joseph Campbell and htis idea of myth, and the hero’s journey, and the way it’s historically been gendered. But in the same way that Rabbi Steve Leder pushed me to rethink my aversion to religion, that can feel mysoginistic in the way that it was canonized millennia ago, myth is for all of us. It knows no gender. And I think the core steps are so critical for contextualizing our lives. And in a way, we think about this moment that we’re in right now, and that’s really what we’re missing is the hero’s journey. And, thinking through how our own lives are part of something so much bigger. But it’s that zooming in and out that is so essential to being human. To be able to locate yourself on a “YOU ARE HERE” sticker on a map, and to recognize that there are paths all around you, that we’re each on our path, but that they’re part of a collective whole and that your live is one of those paths, and that it has meaning, and that that in turn can be a model for someone else of what’s possible.